University offers after results

[Bowbridge]

www.theguardian.com/education/2020/nov/13/vice-chancellors-back-university-offers-going-out-after-a-level-results?scrlybrkr=d231436b

This is long overdue in my opinion. Most universities don't read the personal statement and base their offers purely on grades. This will save schools, teachers and students so much time in the Autumn term. In many other countries they base offers on grades achieved and a 400 word motivational statement. The UK should follow suit. Thoughts?

“Will Scottish universities follow suit... or jump in first!?”

Don’t Scottish unis already do this with Scottish students?

I agree that the best system would be continuous assessment- some of it exam based with external markers, some coursework. But not all just based on a few big exams at the end of two years. Maybe the government think that would be too ‘easy’ but it would be so much fairer.

The Scottish system already does this. Students apply between October and January. They may already have some Highers in the bag from S5, state what extra Highers they are studying in S6. They then get offers based on this, either unconditional (if they already have enough) or conditional based on results day in the August. If they don’t get the final results, they don’t meet the conditions, they don’t get in. So they have already done the ucas bit, whittled down from 5 to 2 offers waaaay before results day hits.

@skeemee

The Scottish system already does this. Students apply between October and January. They may already have some Highers in the bag from S5, state what extra Highers they are studying in S6. They then get offers based on this, either unconditional (if they already have enough) or conditional based on results day in the August. If they don’t get the final results, they don’t meet the conditions, they don’t get in. So they have already done the ucas bit, whittled down from 5 to 2 offers waaaay before results day hits.

Scottish unis start a year before English, Welsh and NI ones though. If we moved to the more radical of the proposals (apply after results), we'd have to move to a start date of January. Making the age gap between Scottish starters and English even wider. Not to mention the problem of a million 18 year olds claiming universal credit for the four months after they got their A levels and before uni started.

Now if Mr Gove hadn't decoupled AS levels from A levels we could have had a system much closer to the Scottish system, with no need for predicted A level grades because half the course would have been completed and graded.

I am wondering how they will adjust this system to accommodate the large number of international students the UK attract. Most other countries in the world cater to their local students, the UK hosts the 2nd largest number of international students in the world, who need the extra time to sort themselves out. I have noticed Uni's tend to offer to international students first, they want them in the bag, and they will not want to loose their inflated fees. International students are important to the universities and the economy.

@titchy I don’t think that’s correct? Scottish unis start in September just like rest of UK. The kids are all 18ish regardless of where is the UK they are coming from. Of course there will be exceptional students that could go after S5, but these are very few and far between.

Scottish courses are 4 years for honours tho... is this what you are thinking?

[quote skeemee]@titchy I don’t think that’s correct? Scottish unis start in September just like rest of UK. The kids are all 18ish regardless of where is the UK they are coming from. Of course there will be exceptional students that could go after S5, but these are very few and far between.

Scottish courses are 4 years for honours tho... is this what you are thinking?[/quote]
Scottish kids only have to do one year of sixth form equivalent. Highers are roughly AS level and kids usually go to uni after Highers, between the ages of 17.5 and 18.5 (ok so 6 months younger than their English counterparts), that's why Scottish degrees are four years - the first year is essentially the academic equivalent to the second year of A levels.

Of course there will be exceptional students that could go after S5, but these are very few and far between.

Thirty years ago when I went to Glasgow Uni all of us in Halls had done 6th year (and had pissed about doing nonacademic stuff grew up a bit having received unconditional offers from every uni by Christmas) and the Glaswegians all lived at home but came straight from 5th year. It wasn't really about who had better grades, it was cultural.

The same cultural issues apply all over the uk though and I don’t see why applying after results are known will change this. Cultural issues make dc stay nearer to home. How can a post results change this? Lots of girls, especially, are not allowed away from home to go to university. Some young people like to stay where there cultural references are. This results in universities not being chosen for quality but for cultural reasons. Changing this is difficult. In fact are these students the ones everyone is worried about? If so, it’s a much deeper issue than post exam applications.

@titchy @CountFosco

Hmmm. I don’t think many Scottish kids apply to start uni at 17, after only one year of highers. I can’t think of any of their friends leaving school after S5 and going straight to uni. Technically it’s possible but I’ve not seen it happening at all.

Regardless, their university offers are based on actual results received. Not on estimates, which is what this thread is about. I’m pretty sure this is the Irish system too? My sons new pals at uni didn’t know until results day where they were heading.

Will IB students have an advantage with results being out earlier than A levels?

I think Germany base their offers on results achieved. I recall a friend's DD applying post results to a couple of German universities and not getting offers/rejections until mid September.

I doubt it, @Bowbridge. They will probably wait to do them all together.

Another wrinkle: will top but non Oxbridge unis avoid giving offers to students achieving AAA* or similar, leaving some still without places if they don't get in to Oxbridge?

I also think the deadlines for offers and acceptances will be incredibly short. Never mind deadlines for applications. The current system takes a minimum of 7 months. Now it’s being reduced to 2 months? How will this work? Will admissions staff be seasonal workers?

@PresentingPercy

I also think the deadlines for offers and acceptances will be incredibly short. Never mind deadlines for applications. The current system takes a minimum of 7 months. Now it’s being reduced to 2 months? How will this work? Will admissions staff be seasonal workers?

There's two models - one is apply in the normal timeframe, but you don't get offers till August. This is workable and will probably end up happening not that it'll solve anything

The other is apply August. No way this could work unless uni didn't start till Jan - and there's a whole heap of other problems with that.

[quote skeemee]**@titchy* @CountFosco*

Hmmm. I don’t think many Scottish kids apply to start uni at 17, after only one year of highers. I can’t think of any of their friends leaving school after S5 and going straight to uni. Technically it’s possible but I’ve not seen it happening at all.

Regardless, their university offers are based on actual results received. Not on estimates, which is what this thread is about. I’m pretty sure this is the Irish system too? My sons new pals at uni didn’t know until results day where they were heading.[/quote]
Skeemee is correct most Scottish students get their offers based on their Highers (S5) whilst studying for more Highers/Advanced Highers in S6. Except for courses like medicine and dentistry where your place will be conditional on Advanced Higher results, many get unconditional offers based on the Highers results already in hand.
I think this change in England/Wales is long overdue and will be much fairer for everyone and avoid an awful lot of wasted energy. Even in Scotland there can be issues with the accuracy of teachers' predicted grades for S6, if you want to get an offer from say St Andrews where they receive far more applicants with 5 x As (S5) at Higher than there are Scottish-funded places available.

Ah. I’d missed that titchy. I thought everyone was pushing for applying after results are known. Applying before you know grades won’t make much difference then. You are still applying with assessment grades as your guide. Not actual results. So why would young people alter where they think is suitable for them. They will just apply to where they think is suitable which is what they do now. So how will this benefit disadvantaged pupils?

@titchy and @PresentingPercy
The only way to properly avoid students having their ambition constrained by their schools’ predictions (official or implied) is to do all applications after the results come out.

August 10th results come out.
10 days to make applications. Subsidised train fares for open days?
August 20th Application deadline. Universities offer purely on the Grade/UM
August 25th offers released. Another 10 days for decisions/reapplication if no offers.
September 5th Accommodation selection begins
September10th Accommodation confirmed
September 25th Students arrive.

No PS, no interview - everything purely based on percentages in exams (with added
contextualisation based on deprived areas).

Problems

• University staff and students would have to be available for the summer open days.
• No time for interviews (although only a tiny minority of courses use these) so no opportunity to decide between the diligent but dull and the brilliant but impetuous.
• No time for any meaningful consideration of Personal Statements (although a minority of those are read now)

And of course none of that would solve the problem of deprived students choosing local (and less prestigious) universities for financial reasons or lack of confidence.

Sounds like a plan @KingscoteStaff

UCAS could open 20th June and close on 20th August with choices changed at any time. Open days between 20th June and 9th August.

LNAT, BMAT, UKAT, GAT, HAT, Step exams etc all taken in July post A levels. No interviews would level the playing field for deprived students.
Places offered purely on results and contextual flags.

Sounds like an awful plan! 10 days to visit and make up your mind about course and university? Some people on MN take a year at least judging by posts. None of that overcomes a student with AAB going on a BBC course just down the road because their friends are and it’s easy. In fact with less time, the highly motivated or well off will fly to Scotland and look around diligently. With 10 days and an inevitable clash of open days it will be a nightmare. We will wish this genie was firmly in the bottle!

Sounds like clearing and adjustment over 10 days rather than 10 hours. Offers based on exact grades received.

Alternative is to start 1st year in January and allow 13thAug - 13th Nov for applications, then decisions by mid Dec.

BUT, that’s a long time for 18 year olds to be NEET, plus no child benefit. Might the very deprived children we’re trying to help be forced into a NMW job that Autumn, and might that actually mean that they never get back onto the education progression at all?

It’s the one summer that students can usually have a breather between A levels and starting uni. If they have to sit any relevant application tests in July and then apply and do visits in August, then that’s the chance of backpacking/inter railing etc gone - or for those with summer jobs/work experience lined up, that will all be disrupted.

Compulsory Gap Yah? Taken up with university application and then some sort of National Service/Citizen Volunteering? Expensive, though.

There's a whole heap more problems with either 'apply after results' models. Jan start - who pays the unis for a term of no intake? Who pays the universal credit bill of half a million unemployed but not looking for a permanent job 18 year olds? Who advises the kids once their grades are out and provides references if needed - their teachers who are in the middle of their summer holidays? How does this attract overseas students who's unis all (except Aus) start in September - why would they wait an extra four months to start?

Compressing the apply/offer to one month is unworkable. Open days have to happen throughout the year - how many kids are going to want or be able to travel to half a dozen open days in a week? How do the Royal college of music/conservatoire of dance and drama/university of the arts London/RADA etc select their students without audition or portfolio? Again who provides advice to kids? Who raises their ambitions? How do you sort out arrangements/DSA for disabled students? Can the SLC cope with half a million applications/confirmations of place in a few days? Can accommodation be sorted in a few days - halls possibly, what about private accommodation? Again international students - can they get their visas and accommodation sorted in time?

Crucially, the current system isn't actually broke, and none of the models actually help disadvantaged students.