Languages at St Andrews

[Tenpastseven]

Does anyone have any experience of a languages degree (likely French and Spanish post A level) at St Andrews?

We had a look online and the information offered on the course looks far more sparse than on other Uni sites. Unless I’m just not looking properly.

I think it is, yes. I think if one really wanted to conduct business in Barcelona, or spend any time living there and wanted to integrate in any way, Catalan is helpful.

We had a long chat about this at an Open Day but won't bore you!

Agree with piggy - it creates so much goodwill when you are in the region if you make an effort to speak the language of that region. Also there's a really rich Catalan culture, that is closed off to people who only speak Spanish.

FWIW I have a friend who teaches French at St Andrews and he is one of the loveliest people I know!

I find the swing towards independence depressing. I've talked about it to a number of Catelans, and they don't seem to have much of a reason for wanting independence. The dislike of Spanish is connected to this.

The problem (or delight) of niche languages are that they are largely seen as an academic diversion. Fun to study but not much use in the wider world. Yes, they are harder but that’s the point. Shows intellect and curiosity. DD did a bit of medieval French (Crusades poetry anyone?) and of course such study can be enormously satisfying. Stretching yourself intellectually is never a bad thing.

The independent schools now supply a large number of MFL grads and the limiting of gcse MFL to one language in many schools is depressing for linguists. No one gets limited to one science!

hear hear to that.

I mean I ma not an expert rainy but I think quite a lot of it has to do with memories of Franco.

@mimbleandlittlemy Thanks that list is really helpful. Good to get a sense of what the offers might be like.

@bigbradford does that mean that most MFL applicants/graduates are privately educated?

DS now going off the idea of St Andrews based on distance alone, so is back to 3 he's sure will go on UCAS for now: Cambridge, Bristol and Newcastle. The worry about adding on others later is that the PS may not be as relevant, but I guess he might just need to take the risk rather than put 5 down that he's not sure about.

If you apply early, do you still need to wait till everyone else's January deadline to hear from non-Oxbridge Unis? Or might you know earlier than that? If for example he got rejected from Cambridge but got offers from Newcastle and Bristol which he'd firm and insurance, there's surely no need to add another 2 anyway? This is DS2, but DS1 didn't do an early application so I'm not sure.

Tenpast - ds did a GCSE revision course at the Goethe Institute 2 years ago and he was the only state educated kid on the course. I think it was about 1100 or so doing German A level last year and the bulk of those were private school. It’s shocking.

The other thing that’s shocking is the proportion of girls to boys. Why don’t boys want to do languages?

Obviously our boys do but where are the others?

It's endemic in nearly all non science subjects. Ironically, attracting more girls to STEM has just entrenched the view that STEM is more worthy and boys are very status driven.

The exceptions are economics (which is STEMy anyway), politics (a man's world?) and history (again, lots of men...)

DS1 got some offers very quickly indeed after submitting his application. Durham offered within 24 hours. Others took a bit longer.

DS2 will submit his application to Oxford and St Andrews and see if he gets an offer from St Andrews before the January deadline. If he gets a St Andrews offer, he might decide not to use another of his options on a definite 3As university.

I don’t believe most (Over 50%) MFL grads are privately educated but even in 2013 (where I found stats) it was 34%. This cannot be lower 7 years on as the state school dc drop languages like a stone as soon as they can. Many state schools don’t promote languages but of course some are wonderful. Just not enough. Tiny classes are not usually allowed in state schools and a lack of choice of languages is also a concern. These days just French and Spanish is the norm and just one of these at GCSE is normal too. MFL A level entries keep going down, but in private schools they are steady. However privately educated students make no difference to the university experience. It’s possible to find like minded people at all universities. Bristol, Cambridge, Durham, St Andrews and Oxford have always been private school heavy but that’s no reason to shun them. Go to the best you can.

The bigger problem is competing with native speakers. They come from any type of school and, if their parents are MFL teachers or similar, they definitely have an advantage! As they do at A level.

My DD had early decisions in October and a March decision as I recall. No, universities do not all wait until the January deadline before offering. But I would wait until all offers are in before making a decision. It’s only Oxbridge where there’s any question over an offer (unless a dc is really punching above their academic weight!) because universities need the decent students and there are not enough of them.

I’m not sure when the deadline for applications is in Jan nor when Oxbridge send out offers but it can sometimes be January although mostly before Christmas I think. I don’t see any advantage in not putting every university down at the same time. They don’t know where else you’ve applied but they will guess Oxbridge with an early application. By receiving an early application, they know you are good!

DD did get into Oxford but an A level result went awry! Hence Bristol as insurance. I can honestly look back now she’s successfully on her way into a very competitive career, that it made no difference to her. Intellect and ability to do well wasn’t fully represented in her A level results!

@mimbleandlittlemy I didn't know this either, there seems to be a good mix of girls and boys in ds's state school french and spanish classes, though such a small 'sample size' I know.

That's such a good place to be at @bigbradford and it helps me feel less anxious about the whole thing. Did your dd get a 'standard' offer from Bristol? Looks like that is AAB?

Yes she did get a standard offer from Bristol. As one language was French I wouldn’t expect them to lower it and she wouldn’t qualify for a contextual offer. A friend of hers did a gap year in the country of her single MFL degree and they accepted her on much lower grades. However I would definitely do joint honours.

Honestly: don’t worry too much about getting offers. Oxbridge are the most competitive but beyond that I’m not sure anywhere is asking for AAA and even Oxford don’t want any A*s!

I do wonder why Manchester are now interviewing. I’d love to know. High drop out rates? I wonder what they ask applicants to do at interview?

I think the only thing that has kept MFL going at all in many state schools is EBacc. I normally hate EBacc but support the idea of languages surviving!

Recruitment in teaching into MFL is a huge issue and retention even worse. Staff often are unqualified, too. Bit of a shitshow. Very sad.

Manchester interviewed one of my students for a history and film joint degree. They took a portfolio of work and discussed it. Just sounded like an old fashioned interview chat, really. She got a standard offer : I think if they really want a student they lower it.

But I know there aren't issues getting numbers for Manchester history so it does seem odd.

I must say, I don't hear people talking about Manchester as much these days : perhaps it is less desirable than other big redbricks? But I wouldn't think interviewing would be an answer to fading popularity! It normally suggests the converse?

bigbradford - Manchester are interviewing for lots of subjects now including ML, Geography and lots of STEM. It's almost like an offer holder day in a way, but you don't get the offer until afterwards. DS was told his interview would be by someone from his ab initio so he did lots of careful thinking and reading ready to answer questions and then it was done by the German lot, so that was a bit disappointing, but he likes a train journey so two hours up and two hours back for 2 hours in the uni was fine...

Sorry - should have said to Piggy, Manchester is THE uni from ds's school this year. Lots put Manchester first and Manchester Met second just because they wanted to be in Manchester - seems to be the Leeds of 2020! I think about 16 from ds's y13 are heading to Manchester in the next week or so. DS's school is very hot on History and Politics - most successful departments - and Manchester is very popular for those I think.

Oh good : glad to hear it!

My DC wants to be become an MFL teacher and is pretty enthusiastic about the idea at the moment. I wonder whether I should be encouraging or discouraging (or neither)?!

I would encourage her into teaching. Am I right in thinking MFL teachers get a golden hello? However more money can be made elsewhere but teaching in a school with plenty of lively engaged students would be a great job.

One of DDs friends who now teaches MFL was told he must offer French and Spanish for a state school employment but this was a a few years ago. French wasn’t enough with his joint honours language of Italian. As he hadn’t done Spanish he had to cram it. Spanish or French plus another language eg Russian, Italian, German etc might be ok in grammar schools and larger academic minded independents and comps but many schools now appear to want French and Spanish due to their narrow curriculum requirements. Other languages are not sought after. Schools might be more desperate now!

So many pupils drop MFL in y 9 or 10 and lots of schools don’t care about the Ebacc. It saves on MFL teacher recruitment if lots drop it. Even fewer parents care. It’s always the MFL that gets dropped because it’s hard work! I think dc who work at languages to succeed and don’t have parent(s) or grandparents who speak the language are to be admired.

@mimbleandlittlemy It's funny how that happens isn't it. Newcastle has been the Uni of choice for lots of my friend's DC for 2019 and 2020 entry. I remember when I went to Uni the place to go was Sussex and I had loads of friends who went there. I didn't and felt a bit left out.

Yes, there is a big bursary for MFL. We have 3 languages at my school and most of the teachers actually only teach one of them.

Teaching MFL requires a lot of energy!