Oxbridge 2020 (thread 10) - the path to the first term (just one slight hurdle to clear first)

[DadDadDad]

For better or worse, there is a bit of a bond of mutual experience between parents whose DC go through the Oxbridge application process. Thank you for your companionship so far - and thank you to others who started the earlier threads in this series.

This thread should take us to the start of the first term (whatever form that takes). All welcome here, but for many of us hopefully this will be the place for practical support as we help prepare these peculiar* young adults to spread their wings.

But the first item on the agenda appears to be the small matter of judgement...

*or for those who chose Oxford, very peculiar.

I also realised I haven't introduced myself and I've never posted on this thread. Sorry for barging in! My son was an offer holder for Jesus, Oxford. Was very fortunate he was near enough the top of the rankings to make his offer despite one subject being down-graded. We are very relieved and he is happy. Ofqual's approach of rounding down rather than rounding up is what resulted in his down-grading as historic performance in that subject over 2017-2019 was 1.67 A and he was ranked 2 so only one A awarded.... We are hoping to appeal on the basis of his course work as that was a high A (mock was only an A though CAG was A)

Why don’t they just take everyone who applied anywhere? Just don’t bother with any pretence of admitting the most academic. If I were a top student I’d be pretty pissed off with letting any Tom, dick or Harriet in. There will be those who do deserve reconsideration - with evidence - but this knee-jerk reaction to fling open the doors is a big mistake. Filling up a third of next year’s places with people who ranked tenth in their subject at school - what a shame for the academic reputation of Oxbridge.

Actually, most current students are pretty keen on letting in as many students that missed their grades as possible, especially those of us who went to state schools etc, because we recognise that we could have easily missed out if we had been in the year below. Of course, letting everyone in is not exactly practical. However, by the time it comes to A level grades, even in normal years a lot of missed grades are down to chance - offer holders proved they weren’t, as you put it “any Tom, dick or Harriet” at interview and in the pre-interview tests. Most of us aren’t so obsessed with maintaining the elitism of our institution that we can’t see that!

Filling up a third of next year’s places with people who ranked tenth in their subject at school - what a shame for the academic reputation of Oxbridge

We would appreciate a ranking of 10, as over 600 students were ranked for one on DD's subjects, 350 for another and 250 for the third.

It is only letting people in who have got an offer, many who have been downgraded by a terrible algorithm, which we know disadvantages students from poorer backgrounds.
The 2020 cohort has been severely disadvantaged by this and many students and alumni support CAGs being used it all students being given a place.

This could mean there are less places next year possibly. It could mean the 2021 have a different level of competition , but this year's cohort has to be the current priority to them during this very difficult time.

Reverting to CAGs will result in grade inflation which will make uni admissions next year even more of a headache and further disadvantage the 2021 cohort. I suspect GCSE results will be an important element in Oxbridge applications next year, particularly for Cambridge who have, I think, scrapped entrance tests for some subjects.

just seen a statement on Cambridge Uni website (not sure if this has been linked to already):

Everyone involved in the undergraduate admissions process at Cambridge is acutely aware of the distress and confusion experienced by many offer-holders and their families as a result of the grading process for A-levels this year. We are doing all that we can to address the concerns expressed – concerns not only about the well-being of individuals, but about the risk of jeopardising the great progress that has been made in recent years towards a more inclusive University.

Our shared aim over the last few days of difficult decisions has been to be flexible and compassionate. Our colleges have looked at every individual case, and across Cambridge hundreds of candidates who missed their offer have been admitted on a discretionary basis, comprising roughly 20% of the incoming cohort of students.

Our commitment to widening participation remains absolute. Despite the extraordinary circumstances and the pressure placed on admissions staff and tutors, the University has surpassed all the ambitious annual targets in our Access and Participation Plan. We will welcome the highest proportion of students from state schools in our history, with more students from traditionally low-participation neighbourhoods. Our incoming cohort will be the most socially diverse ever.

There are limits to flexibility, however. Unlike most universities, Cambridge guarantees all incoming students college accommodation and small group teaching based in our colleges. The college experience is crucial to our educational offer. This puts a cap on our first-year numbers. Like all selective universities, we typically make offers to more students than we will ultimately admit, knowing that some may not achieve the offer level, or may make other university choices. This year, we made approximately 4,500 offers for 3,450 places. We will accommodate a larger number of students than usual, but stretching our available resources to accept a big increase would undermine the experience of all students. We must also bear in mind the imperative this year of ensuring the safety of our students and staff, at a time when we are also having to plan in the shadow of a pandemic, with required social distancing. Finally, we must consider the effect of a ‘bulge’ in the cohort that would play out over years affecting availability of courses for a generation of students.

We have committed additionally, however, to admit any candidate whose A-level grading appeal is successful, meaning that they achieve the level required in their offer. (We hope that many students who might have appealed will not have to do so, as we will have already admitted them on a discretionary basis.) If any appeal is successful, and is decided before our spaces are completely full, we will offer that student a place for this year. If the appeal decision comes too late, but is successful, we will offer a place for next year. Likewise, if a student meets their offer following their taking examinations this autumn, their place will be confirmed for October 2021.

The University and colleges are not able to accept all offer-holders for deferred entry, as has been suggested by some commentators, because we must also think about the next generation of applicants who have also seen their educational experience disrupted by the pandemic and its consequences. We cannot simply take away hundreds of spaces from students who intend to apply to Cambridge in the next year or two.

I appreciate and largely echo the concerns expressed by so many members of the Cambridge community. It is encouraging to see the passion for fairness and inclusion displayed by our current students and recent graduates, and the University and colleges shall do our best to honour that passion.

Prof Stephen J Toope, Vice-Chancellor

I know it's easy to be cynical, but it does feel to me that both unis are doing all they can to admit as many as they can - and it's interesting that both are saying it's actually boosting the percentage accepted from disadvantaged backgrounds.

I wonder if in the year ahead they will be more vigilant about freshers who are not working or are who just not coping, and asking them to leave? What's the score normally in kicking students out after 1 year?

That's not a very nice post dad x3 it insinuates that disadvantaged students may not be up to studying at Oxbridge. I've always been led to believe that state school DC out perform private school DC at Oxbridge. To perform well at some state schools the DC need to be very self motivated. That doesn't mean that private school DC are not self motivated.

These disadvantaged students have had everything work against them this year. There is absolutely no correlation between those from disadvantaged backgrounds and being less able! We all know the A level algorithm worked against them.
Cambridge have sought over the last few years to widen participation and it is to their credit that even this year they have continued to do that.

We can't expect them to take everyone. They do seem to be behaving reasonably. My DC may well not get in due to being downgraded (hoping we'll find out tomorrow). But then they might have had a bad day in the exam room. That's what the insurance choice is there for.

Er, gosh, I never meant to imply those from disadvantaged backgrounds are less capable - mainly because I believe nothing of the sort!

My point is that, in normal years, the filter that Oxbridge have used is getting your offer, and then considering admitting a small number (but not all) of those who missed their offer because they believed they nevertheless had the potential to succeed in the course. This year the picture is more opaque because lots of students missed their offers and they've rightly veered towards taking a bigger number anyway, so whatever the student's background, there is more likelihood of taking on some students who are not going to cope, so more pressure to apply further filtering after the first year. (I know that sounds harsh, but actually that could just as much apply to someone with a privileged background who thinks they can "cruise" at Oxbridge and are not delivering the goods. Admitting early on that the course is not right for you is not easy, but better than failing the whole degree).

Additionally, where numbers across the university are more stretched, it might be harder to support struggling students (eg I know a friend's DD is about to retake her first year at Oxford - for 2020 entrants, colleges may be more reluctant to give a first year place to a retaker when they have new applicants they want to give space to in 2021).

I admit this is speculation on my part, but when Cambridge talk about reaching limits for maintaining the quality of their offering an inference is that they've got less margin to hold on to under-performers in the year ahead (who could equally be from privileged backgrounds as much as disadvantaged ones).

I suppose the difficult nuance is that disadvantaged students missed their offers, not because of their abilities but because of an algorithm and where they went to school. Whereas others fulfilled their offer because they weren’t downgraded by an algorithm because they were in independent schools with small class sizes etc but in reality they may have been the kids who fell at the last hurdle, didn’t get the exam results they needed, and in an alternate universe actually would have missed their offer. There’s no way to tell those students apart at the moment.

Many of the very advantaged, super selective independent schools don’t have small class sizes though (well not small enough so that the CAGs would have been left to stand under this algorithm). The independent schools with the highest, most consistent results are, with a few exceptions, in London and are rammed to the rafters. Yes there have no doubt been some advantages of going to a school where the results are more consistent but I think it’s easy to forget that, like Oxbridge, these schools have a track record for a good reason - ie. it’s probably more competitive to get into somewhere like St Paul’s Girls at age 11 then it is to Oxbridge at 17 (relatively speaking). There are schools in West London (including certain grammars) that have 15 / 20 applicants for every place and it’s fierce competition, both at entry and all the way through, so is it really surprising they get the results they do, year on year, when they can cherry-pick from a pool of the most academically able? I’m sure if an algorithm had to be applied to university results / finals, Oxbridge and other more competitive unis would come out on top and nobody would be saying that is because the system is biased.

You could just as easily argue that rural schools with small class sizes have benefitted more than those in urban areas because the CAGs have stood for class sizes under 6. Or that those taking “smaller” subjects such as Classical Civilisations or Greek have escaped the effects of the algorithm more than those doing the “bigger” subjects such as Maths.

I really do sympathise with any student whose grades have genuinely been slashed by this algorithm. However, if their CAGs were higher, there is every chance their appeal will be successful and far more will get their Oxbridge places this year than ever.

But I do think Gavin Williamson should be sacked / resign because the whole thing has been beyond shambolic.

And now this

So he can’t even appeal and so he feels like it’s essentially this teacher and his own school who he thought supported his Oxbridge application who have deprived him of his place. Imagine a school giving a student the grades to apply to Oxbridge, watching them succeed in the admissions tests and interviews etc and then being the teacher to pull the rug from under their feet,

Not a comment specifically about this young person, as I do not know them, but...

Why on earth would whichever subject teachers responsible assess someone as a B if they genuinely were secure within the A*s or the As? And equally, if they were not genuinely secure within one of the higher grades, on the evidence that the school had available to them internally to use as instructed by Ofqual, why should they be leapfrogged over other students, just on the basis of the university offer they hold? Was 'Have they got an Oxbridge offer?' one of the official criteria to be considered when allocating Centre Assessed grades?

@flowerrful, I admire your sensible and stoic attitude. I hope you have good news soon.

To be honest, I think that this year's Oxbridge applicants are having a really tough time as it is with Covid, and that it's unfair for them to have fewer places to apply to than this year's applicants.

A lot can happen (or not happen) between the Oxbridge application and March/April, when the predictions were made.

I support what dad is saying. This year's system of grade allocation has not been fair.... BUT I think the 2021 cohort are more disadvantaged given how much schooling they've missed and that they will be competing for less places at Oxbridge due to this year's admissions bulge.

Oxbridge really ought to do exams at the end of the first term. Underperformers should be weeded out to allow for a normal intake (in numbers terms) next year.

I know there are various Oxbridge access schemes that organise visits to Oxford / Cambridge to encourage those students from disadvantaged areas who who wouldn’t normally think to apply. Obviously none of these have happened this year. No open days, no “university advice” talks at school - nothing. My DS is on a gaming forum where he chats to people from all over the country and there are some, about to go into Year 13, who say they’ve literally done nothing since schools closed. The gaps in teaching provision and consequently engagement are stark and look set to continue if there are any more local lockdowns. So many more disadvantaged students won’t have had that extra “push” to even apply for 2021 and then those that do will be competing for less places, by the look of it. Not only that, but they’ll be sitting the same exams as those who have had the full “real-time” online curriculum delivered last term with no concessions whatsoever, as things stand.

flowerful - the best of luck to your DC this week. Fingers crossed!

My son has been invited to a 3 week bridging course by his college at Cambridge starting 6th September. All expenses paid including £500 to cover expenses. How exciting. Anyone else?

As a 2021 Oxford applicant DD is very stressed about the whole thing. Biased I know, but I do believe her cohort are in a worse position than this years.

Regarding how Oxford deal with underperforming or struggling students. DD1 had quite a few in her college. They do offer a range of alternatives depending on circumstance. There were a number of rustications, some of whom never came back, there were also some who were offered to re-do a year. She knew of only one who was effectively kicked out for a raft of misdemeanours.