Oxbridge 2020 (thread 10) - the path to the first term (just one slight hurdle to clear first)

[DadDadDad]

For better or worse, there is a bit of a bond of mutual experience between parents whose DC go through the Oxbridge application process. Thank you for your companionship so far - and thank you to others who started the earlier threads in this series.

This thread should take us to the start of the first term (whatever form that takes). All welcome here, but for many of us hopefully this will be the place for practical support as we help prepare these peculiar* young adults to spread their wings.

But the first item on the agenda appears to be the small matter of judgement...

*or for those who chose Oxford, very peculiar.

The smaller Oxford colleges don’t have room for too many extra. DD’s college usually admits 6 to 7 for her subject. (It is anticipated that 1 in four miss their grades in a “normal” year.) The college have now confirmed 10 for this year - the number of tutors hasn’t increased so tutorial groups will be larger.

Cambridge traditionally heavily relies on A levels and STEP as a final selection. The latter, fine this year although will obviously disappointing for those who have had a bad exam.
In view of A level issues Cambridge may already be using their own algorithm for those with dropped grades that takes into account ranks in the Cambridge administered tests / interviews plus school context.

If we'd known earlier in the year that A-level results would be in such disarray that we would need to disregard them completely, we could have made plans
That is a bit disingenuous or head in the sand. This situation was predictable and in any case required contingency planning.

My former colleagues at an Oxford college have been discussing the problem since exams were cancelled. But when offers were made in January there was barely a sniff of news about a novel coronavirus, and definitely not when decisions were made about those offers during interviews in December.
I’ve heard a fair bit of “thank God I don’t work at Cambridge any more - this will be so much worse there.”

I didn't put in the bit where the person said how incredibly busy they had been since lockdown, just fighting fires - I imagine dealing with current students and trying to work out how they could possibly deliver degrees in a socially-distanced way.

Could colleges have predicted that the algorithm was going to be so unfit for purpose? Even if they were sceptical I don't know what other options there were to assess students that wouldn't have disadvantaged them in another way. If Cambridge traditionally over-offer by a lot, then they are at the mercy of the A-level examiners.

It would be nice to have an idea of timing. DC is still waiting in the pool...

It must be agony, flowerrful - so sorry for you and DC. Crossing fingers...

Somethingforyou all university staff involved in teaching have been incredibly busy and having to adapt fast.

My other post outlines what Cambridge could be using. Cambridge fortunately have now as well as interview scores, admissions test data which although not fully validated is still very useful in the context of the error margins in A level grade calculations.

Many congratulations to Cliff1975, Doadeer and FingernailNibbler!

Hope you get good news soon Flowerrful, the waiting must be awful. Will keep my fingers crossed.

I read an open letter (linked in TSR) from Alumni of Cambridge University on honouring the offers made to students in 2020 admissions cycle.

Apologies, unable to link directly to it so I’ve copied and pasted it beneath (think there were around 9,000 signatures) And apologies if it’s already been highlighted. It refers to offers made in the state sector:

To the Vice-Chancellor, Pro-Vice-Chancellors, and Heads of the Colleges,

We, alumni of Cambridge University, are writing to ask that the University honour all offers made to students from the state sector in the 2020 Admissions Cycle.

The University has always maintained that examination results alone are not a sufficient indicator of a student’s potential, or their suitability for a Cambridge education. The interview process, which is so central to the admissions system, is evidence of this belief. The University website argues that ‘it's difficult to select fairly based on the UCAS application alone’, and that the interview process gives candidates the opportunity both to ‘demonstrate their interest in and commitment to their subject’, and to show ‘their ability to think critically and independently.’ Any student offered a place at the University under those circumstances must be assumed to have demonstrated their interest, commitment, skill, and potential.

Ordinarily, of course, offer holders are required to fulfil the conditions of their offer through A-level examination. But this has been no ordinary year, and students have already suffered. Now, the current fiasco surrounding the government’s approach to grading – especially its flawed algorithm, and the disproportionately negative impact on students educated in the state sector and those from disadvantaged backgrounds – risks further damaging the prospects of a generation, and further entrenching existing inequalities.

The University’s Access and Participation Plan 2020–21 to 2024–25 makes clear that the University is ‘committed to widening participation, and to achieving an intake that is reflective of UK society’. It states that the University’s ‘ultimate objectives are to admit a student body in which no identified priority group is under-represented, and to eliminate gaps between such groups in continuation, attainment and progression.’ The same document also notes the University’s aim to ‘deliver an admissions process that is fair, transparent, and sufficiently sophisticated to measure ability and potential for academic success.’ Clearly, the UK government’s approach has not been fair, nor has it been sufficiently sophisticated: after moderation, private schools saw a year-on-year increase in A*/A attainment of 4.7%, against increases of just 1.7%, 2%, and 0.3% for England's academies, comprehensive schools and colleges respectively. This demonstrates an inherent inequality in the moderation process, and we now see exceptionally able students from communities that are grossly underrepresented at Cambridge unjustly being denied a place due to circumstances that are entirely out of their control. The University can, and should, do better than the government. Now is the moment to act on your plan – to demonstrate that the University is capable of seeing the inequality in the current crisis, and acting in the interests of parity and justice.

We hope that the University can be ‘sufficiently sophisticated’ in its approach to offers in this Admissions Cycle, and that it does not simply double-down on an unjust grading system which has already proven itself unfit for purpose. It would be for the benefit of all that Cambridge welcome all these talented students, giving them the opportunities they wholeheartedly deserve.

We look forward to your response.

Yours sincerely,

Alumni of Cambridge University

NB for signatories, please don't worry if your name does not automatically appear on the list after signing. It will be there eventually (manual input system = delay!) - no need to double-sign.

The only thing I would say is that there are colleges at Cambridge that have say, 85% applications from the state sector and offer proportionally. I don’t think it’s the same as at Oxford? The colleges over-offer by maybe 30% because the offers are often conditional on higher grades being achieved than at Oxford. Should they take the entire extra 30% this year? Or should they ask them all to defer - thereby potentially taking up 30% of places for other applicants next year, the majority of whom will also be from the state sector? The most disadvantaged will be even more disadvantaged next year because they have already missed an entire term’s teaching (unlike those in the private sector) and are likely to miss even more in the coming year if there are further lockdowns. Next year there will be more inequality than ever, without a third of places having potentially been assigned before these students even apply.

We found out DS’s place at Oxford was confirmed before he had his results from school. He actually missed his offer but thankfully his college at Oxford accepted him anyway. His school has released to CAGs to him; they submitted A*AA and he was given ABB. All three subjects were downgraded. He attends a state comprehensive. A lot of his cohort were drastically downgraded and missed their offers. Really thankful that Oxford didn’t reject him from the offset and that we don’t have to go through the appeals process but now DS is feeling a bit of imposter syndrome and undeserving of his place. He is also in two minds whether he should appeal and have his grade changed or just leave it because his firm choice was confirmed. What should have been a happy celebration has been slightly tainted for him with a lot of unnecessary self-doubt.

Lady - I would say definitely appeal. What does he have to lose? What a relief he didn’t lose his place.

I know if a boy in an independent school who was also moderated down but, even worse than this, he then found out that his teacher had also given him a B in one subject for the CAGs! He needed AAA and his CAGs were AAB (moderated to ABB). So he can’t even appeal and so he feels like it’s essentially this teacher and his own school who he thought supported his Oxbridge application who have deprived him of his place. Imagine a school giving a student the grades to apply to Oxbridge, watching them succeed in the admissions tests and interviews etc and then being the teacher to pull the rug from under their feet, in the midst of a pandemic, and give them a B instead of the A you awarded them only months before - depriving this boy of a place had earned on his own merits in the interim. Unbelievable!

How all. Sorry for delayed update.
DD had a late rejection post summer pool. She will be appealing her grades - but I think she has now settled on her insurance anyway.

All good here.

'Hi' not 'how'!!

Hi, bpisok - no need to apologise, sorry to hear it wasn't to be. Best wishes to your DD, especially with the appeal - it's a shame how messily this has ended for so many.

D1 also feeling survivors guilt about getting the grades she needed.

I see that Wadham have also said they will now give places to all offer holders, but where courses are already full, students will be guaranteed a deferred place to 2021.
www.wadham.ox.ac.uk/news/2020/august/a-level-results-statement

www.facebook.com/109001877334838/posts/175953103973048/
May be interesting as to why colleges may or may not be able to admit all offer holders regardless of grades.....

Wadham is now honouring all offers: www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/18654653.wadham-college-oxford-accepts-students-hit-a-level-fiasco/

Ds rejected from his oxford college on Thursday has received an email that he will be now be admitted either this year or next . Immensely stressful period for him and us. Very grateful that his college have been able to do this . His email made clear that of those rejected on Thursday state school pupils were disproportionately affected

Tagging @gizmo - your DS might enjoy the caption on the placard (picture from the Guardian of students protesting yesterday). www.theguardian.com/education/2020/aug/16/ofqual-blindsided-government-by-revoking-a-level-appeals-process#img-1

Yesterday was it Worcs, LMH or Wadham or have others started to do the same?

Oxford seem to be working really hard to give as many a place as possible either this year or next year and have a statement on their web page: here is an extract: www.ox.ac.uk/news/2020-08-15-university-statement-2020-admissions

"We made about 3,900 offers in January for an expected 3,287 places at Oxford, before the lockdown in the UK, and have currently made 3,440 offers, well above the numbers we admit in a normal year. Of these, about 284 are for UK state school candidates who have missed their grades, meaning that our UK state school intake currently stands at 67.8% - an increase of 5.7% compared to 2019.

We have also made a 6% increase in places to students from the most socio-economically disadvantaged backgrounds and 2.3% increase to those from areas least likely to go to university. We will also be providing students with extra study skills support when they arrive this year.

As we do every year when grades are remarked, some students may be offered a deferred place. Once we reach our maximum intake of undergraduates in 2020, we will have to defer entry to 2021 for any additional candidates who appeal successfully and whose place is then confirmed. Our primary concern must be the health and safety of our students, staff and community and it will not otherwise be possible for us to meet ongoing social-distancing restrictions and other challenges presented by the COVID-19 pandemic."

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for DD's best friend. She needed A*AA, received 4xA, but was holding an open offer. She has no college fighting her corner.

St Edmund Hall is the third Oxford college to guarantee a place for their 2020 offers.

Sorry just seen someone posted this statement earlier. Somerville and Jesus Colleges have also positive statements. Cambridge seem to be really stuck for space - probably were full with those that made their offers but as someone has said the ones that missed out are likely to be exactly the under-repersented communities they eat seeking to recruit. It will put people off. I hope as a minimum they offer them places next year if their appeals work out. Each year there are over 1100 offer holders at Cambridge who don't make their offers and feel gutted but at least it is a result of exams they have taken.