Think DD has failed? Unsure what to do to support

[MintyJones]

Just after some advice if there's any to be had!

DD has just received her dissertation grade. It's 55. She has two outstanding pieces of work which are yet to come back and are currently being assessed. She thinks they won't be good enough to bring her up to a 2.1. And crucially- she needs this 2.1 - she's about to start work in the public sector - a graduate programme with the entry requirement of a 2.1 (its the police btw)

She has always worked hard for what it's worth. And her first two years she cane out with a 2.1 each year - year 3 had been a different matter - some 2.1's and a couple lower. The uni had two long strikes and obviously the impact of corona virus too.

It's ooh these me asking her if she could have done more. I always saw her working away! She's never missed lectures (when they were on!) and had good relationships with her lecturers

So ... what do I do? Anything I can suggest to help?

I've told her to email her tutors which she's done. One said he was 'busy' and ' can't help anyway as you need to see what your other two pieces come back with' and the other has yet to respond. I've told her to try and work out what she needs for a 2.1 - but I don't really understand how to work this out myself and she didn't seem too sure either! I've also said the usual platitudes

Now I'm at a loss. She's in absolute floods and I want to help - I'm very practical! - but I'm not sure what to advise if anything at all. I didn't personally attend uni so all I know comes from her

Thanks in advance for any pointers - even if it's just reinforcing what I've said already - which is basically ' let's wait and see'

Is this purely join at graduate entry for police? There are many new PCs who don't have degree courses and join and there are ways to join the graduate scheme once you are in. All is definitely not lost, speak to police recruitment for her force and find out more regarding their policies.

@Oblomov20 she has two lecturers - T & L. L is the one who is her specific dissertation tutor and they spent a good chunk of time over Skype - my DD sent her over several drafts and they chatted a lot. She's not responded to any messages

T is the one who's said he's busy but he's sorry. Ah well - I understand they can't do a thing at this stage anyway

She says she needs 58 for a 2.1 - when I asked how far away from that she was, her answer wasn't clear to me. Wish I understood this stuff a little better!

@SchrodingersKitty thank you, that's helpful and interesting to read. I've mooted the idea that she could approach the police and see what's what - once she has a definitive result. Like I said, she has passed everything else, she's a good candidate. Maybe there will be some leeway

Your daughter can’t do anything until the exam board has met and made a decision, unless she has extenuating circumstances that her tutors are not aware of, in which case she needs to contact them urgently.

Depending on her course, it’s not necessarily simply a matter of adding up the marks. There’s usually an experienced senior external (to the University) examiner on the Exam Board who will help to ensure parity of marking across the whole University sector for the particular subject. So if s/he feels that the marking has been generous or tight, s/he can recommend increasing or decreasing the boundary between the grades.

What this means is that if a couple of candidates are just below the threshold of a 2:1 with say 58%, the boundary could be lowered to 58% and they will be awarded a 2:1 and alternatively, the boundary could be increased so that someone with a mark of 71% could still be awarded a 2:1 instead of a First if the boundary between 1st and a 2:1 is moved to 72%.

The Exam Board will have access to all her marks across all her years and they spend a considerable amount of time discussing candidates results who are near a boundary line to ensure equity of treatment.

Sorry didn’t read the whole thread so not sure if anyone else has already said.....
Anyway I work at a Uni and I recommend she rings the admin department/her course admin. They are easy to get a hold of and will talk her through how her degree will be worked out and what changes are in place in response to COVID. They will also know the date of when her results will be officially released.
It’s likely in the unis regulations that he results are not confirmed until the exam board so only provisional at this stage.
Also, a lot of Unis now have an upgrade rule where if you are within 2% boundary (say 58%) of the next classification they will bump you up.
It’s a very difficult time for final year students due to the pandemic so Unis are doing all they can to mitigate the challenges and ensure students are not disadvantaged.

I would be amazed if the grade boundaries haven't been pulled back

Universities don't use grade boundaries in marking as such. A 60-69 is always a 2:i. There is a boundary 'upgrade' policy for the final degree award if you're within 2% of the next band, as other posters have said, but the 'grade boundaries' don't ever change.

Box is correct above. Not sure where some of the information on here is coming from.

i would say, not knowing anything about all this, dont interrogate her any further about the details.
see what MrsWobble3 and Coffeeand have written above.
she just needs to wait until the final result is announced .
then approach the police and plead her case.
or enter at a lower level. or look around for other openings.
all is not lost.
in the meantime she could practice writing a piece to big up her good points to the police. keep all drafts. to refine if necessary.
she needs to be positive. have fall-back positions.
she is not a child. dont catastrophise with her. give adult support.
and encourage writing as if to police/ other employers, as an exercise.
tell her to imagine she is her own agent; write in the third person.

it will occupy her, focus her mind, take a more mature approach.
things could be a lot worse. keep a sense of proportion. good luck.

You also need to know the relative weighting of years 2 and 3 - it’s usually 33:67 rather than 50:50.

55 is actually quite a long way off a 2:1. It's not even 58 or 59. You can't make up the 5 marks. Surely the person marking dd's dissertation is making a point here.

How was this allowed to happen?

What do you mean how was it allowed to happen? She got what she got?

Well I don't want to debate the ins and outs of it, mainly because I don't know how the marking system works - although I'm clearer now from the answers on this post

It's not a blame game at all. I'm curious about one thing though... her dissertation tutor came over to this particular subject last year. She gave DD a lot of advice on a piece of work last year which resulted in DD getting her lowest grade in 2 years - a 59. Just a coincidence of course

She's actually seen DDs dissertation 4 times. And each time told her to amend such and such and send it back. I was amazed at this and even said ' blimey, is she writing it for you? Are they allowed to tweak it like this?' and DD told me it's very normal

Anyway, she's seen it 4 times and had a say in its structure etc and it's come back with another lower mark.

However it is what it is for now. I'm going to advise her to sit tight and wait for the 2 outstanding results and only then will she be able to think about practically what can be done and I can certainly help with that if need be. It's all that can be done right now and I understand that.

But first two years were a 2.1 on each year end and it seems to me that two long strikes and then CV has resulted in this potential issue. She is the type of person who thrives on 'team work' and attending lectures etc so she's definitely been impacted. She received £500 from the uni only last week for the inconvenience so they're fully aware that their teaching and support has been non existent.

Op if the tutor is repeatedly having to correct it, it is not a sign it was good in the first place.

@Bluntness100 yep I tend to agree with you there. But not a lot I can do about that unfortunately. I would hear her say ' yes yes! Such and such is just so amazing but this thing here needs to be more at the front and not to conclude' etc

Basically it wasn't something I really comprehended - id just hear it as DD works in our kitchen diner.

Sigh.

It's hardly unusual for an undergraduate dissertation supervisor to give feedback, which may also mean suggesting changes. But in the end it's up to dd what she chooses to write and submit.

Just because a supervisor reads a student's work and suggests revisions several times doesn't mean that the student will therefore end up with a high mark.

Students often drop grades in the third year. Level 6 writing is not easy, nor is it supposed to be, tbh. I understand that you're upset for dd but is it possible that it just wasn't a particularly good piece of work?

OP, your DD’s dissertation will have been marked, second marked or moderated internally and then had the mark confirmed by an external examiner. She will not be able to appeal the academic judgement of three experts.

She will not be able to appeal the academic judgement of three experts

Ha! In my place, under the current Covid allowances, she most certainly will be able to appeal. And would probably win.

Can you tell it's been a long week up here in my ivory tower?

@BoxAndKnife yes it's totally possible that this piece of work wasn't up to scratch. You can only do your best and if that's not quite good enough then that's that isn't it?

My post certainly isn't about me feeling my little darling should have got a 1st. More to do with asking if there was anything I could do at this stage to help and support. It's not a blame game as I desperately look around to blame anyone but her. I just needed to be clearer in my own mind how this stuff works and this thread has been invaluable for that

@AgileLass that's not correct at all. She's already been told that an appeal is entirely possible should she wish to do that

I do understand, OP, really. Ignore me. It's been, as I say, a long old week in the hallowed halls of academe.

I honestly do hope it works out for your dd; I'm sure it will

To be honest, there's really not much you can do. It's not your degree.

Your DD needs to:
a) actually sit down and work out the maths to see if a 2:1 is possible. This genuinely won't be that difficult
b) look into whether or not her uni have a no detriment policy
c) look into the appeals policy and start putting together the bare bones of what her appeal might be
d) look at the details of the police grad scheme she's aiming for and make sure she knows how to contact them and appeal for leniancy given the current situation, should she need to
e) wait.

E really is the main thing, but if she does A-D she'll at least be prepared.

@BoxAndKnife you've been very helpful. And I can understand that if this is your bread and butter then you must be absolutely heartily sick to death right now

An appeal on grounds of academic judgement? Perhaps, but that’s highly unusual. More likely to be possible on procedural grounds or if there were material extenuating circumstances which the examiners were not aware of.

Regardless, you need to be sure that your DD understands the process correctly.

@SirSamuelVimesBlackboardMonito yes I think that'll be the plan of action.

Again, for clarity, I'm not some meddling parent who feels I need to take over. I don't involve myself much in stuff at all unless I'm required to and we all know that although they're at uni, they need support from time to time. So, when my support is required it's not great for me when I'm unsure of the processes. I feel like I'm a little more aware now though, thanks

The maths is pretty complicated for working out the overall result if both her second and third year marks contribute. Unfortunately the dissertation is likely to be quite a large proportion of the grade. I’d suggest she contact the student union for guidance on both this and the no detriment policy - there is bound to be something in place to make accommodations due to Covid. If one supervisor’s marks are lower across the board than the others’ then this should be picked up at Exam Board and accommodations made, but it does sound as if she got a lot of feedback - we only comment on each chapter once and then once on a full draft - so it may be that it wasn’t the best piece of work she’s produced. Some students do fine on shorter assignments but less well on a longer, more in-depth study such as a dissertation. The police may well be happy to take her regardless - either on the graduate scheme or not - especially if all other aspects of her application meet their criteria. Lots of handholding is probably the best thing you can do just now. Hope it all works out for her.