American universities

[bathsh3ba]

Can anyone advise me on how difficult/easy it is to get into an American university as a British student (not the top universities but a decent one)? Also how much it costs given that I assume no bursaries/loans are available to overseas students?

My youngest really wants to do this and I'm trying to figure out how much I'd have to save up and if I need to dash her hopes now or if it might be feasible.

Mrs Shadenfreude is right about the benefits of being in a sixth form who are well versed in the US process. IB is good, though if you are aiming for a US top 10 college you might be better off at one of the very academic London private schools. They are well known by US college recruiters and, especially for STEM the greater specialisation offered by A levels does not seem to go amiss.

It's a completely different world from mine as well lljkk

DD went to a northern state comprehensive school, then to a northern (albeit a good RG) university.

I am finding this thread interesting, even though I have no useful contribution to make.

DD wanted to get work experience after graduating so didn’t want to study further.

However all the talk about finding the money somehow is very misleading for undergrads. I did say for post grad it was very different. I totally get that.

The op asked about architecture. That’s vocational and leads to a professional British qualification if you study and work here - Chartered Architect. Studying architecture in the USA needs serious evaluation and comparison and truly consideration has to given to be how will it be funded? You simply cannot assume study will be at one of the ultra rich needs blind universities - I think we believe there are 7 of them. They are very competitive and the op really should compare the courses with ones here and value for money.

In the end DDs degree here was cheaper but just as good. No regrets about the USA and she did an internship there instead. It doesn’t appear possible to me to get vast sums to fund undergrad study from any source (other than a rich family) unless you don’t have much money and apply to a university with vast sums to give away. Funding for Brits isn’t available at most universities.

My friend’s DS who has been offered the scholarship to Princeton couldn’t have gone without it. He’s just in a state comp sixth form. His parents are in very normal jobs. He’s just a very bright and self motivated young man who has pursued this because he doesn’t want to specialise yet - he’s an all rounder - so American universities seemed to suit him better.

Yes and Princeton is Ivy League and has needs blind scholarships. Snd huge funds for them. Smaller universities don’t make funds available for overseas students. That’s the difference. The very bright stand a chance at the top notch USA universities but it’s not possible to get such generous funding elsewhere. It’s simply not on offer.

Needmoresleep
DD was sporty so I met lots of US mums at matches desperate to capture their children's starring moments on video. I heard quite bit about US admissions. Apparently if you are adding sport or music to your application a lot depends on whether the College has graduating seniors so need a new bassoonist for their orchestra or a new field hockey goal keeper for their teams.
If you want to be recruited for a NCAA scholarship, you will have spent $$$ thousands already getting your kid noticed through camps, travel teams, regional travel teams, and high school excellence. The mothers on the sidelines were not sending videos to universities. University scouts look at kids starting very young, and they have relationships with schools which are known as funnels for certain sports. Music/performing arts admissions are by portfolio and by audition along with grades. The top schools are incredibly selective.

But your remarks about blowing your own trumpet are right. One problem is that British schools don't write the very glowing references that their US counterparts will. And its hard to give a class position everyone is taking different A levels. It is a real advantage to be at a school that knows the ropes.
Every graduating senior in a US high school is taking different courses too. The way class position is calculated is by GPA or weighted GPA. 'Glowing references' are standardised just as test scores are. They are not taken at face value but weighted by admissions officers.

You have no hope of saving enough to put your DD through a US university. The majority of American parents are in the same boat.

'Decent' universities do not offer financial aid to international students. She should be aiming for the top tier or you will find the cost prohibitive. The top US universities offer need blind admission to US students, with some also offering to waive either partially or in full the cost of attendance to international students. These universities expect to see very well thought out applications from interested students, not applications that were made on a whim or in a hurry.
www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/the-short-list-college/articles/universities-that-offer-international-students-the-most-financial-aid
Top schools for international student aid ^
Not all of these schools have an architecture faculty.

If your DD really wants to go to university in the US then you need to get an account on collegeboard . com and take it from there. There is a huge amount of homework for both of you to do in order to put a serious bid together in the timeframe you have available. There is a huge amount of form filling to do and paperwork to assemble, and documentation to gather, and there are non negotiable deadlines that you ignore at your peril.

Check with the financial aid offices of Cornell, and Barnard College (a women's college, one of the Seven Sisters, affiliated with Columbia University NYC) about international student financial aid.
aap.cornell.edu/academics/architecture/undergraduate
Columbia's undergrad architecture degree is offered via Barnard. You would need to do a masters afterwards to have the equivalent of Cornell's five year BArch though, and get accredited.

Your DD's best bet is MIT for architecture plus international financial aid. MIT gets highly qualified applications from all over the world and admission is excruciatingly selective.
architecture.mit.edu/overview/undergraduate-degrees
Look at -
Cooper Union
Rice

• both of which offer international financial aid and have very well regarded undergrad arch degrees.

Highly selective American universities demand that all students do what is normally called Core Courses/ a Core Curriculum for two years. Many UK students have essentially chosen a math/science or humanities or a lit track, possibly with art or music/performing arts from age 16 and will therefore find the core coursework very challenging. In addition, most US universities require students pass a certain level of coursework or pass a competence test in a MFL (or Latin, maybe Greek). Many UK students drop a MFL early. Early specialisation can put English students at a disadvantage (I keep on saying UK but Scotland's system is not the same as England's).
college.uchicago.edu/academics/core-curriculum
One exposition here ^ of what a Core Curriculum is all about.
As noted by a PP, US students are used to the GPA system and work consistently all year.

The exceptions to core coursework requirements are engineering and sometimes architecture degrees and degrees in art/design schools. For the most part, schools of liberal arts produce graduates who have done courses in a very wide range of subjects before specialising.
aap.cornell.edu/academics/architecture/undergraduate/barch-curriculum
Even without Core Coursework, about one quarter of courses over the five years of Arch in Cornell will be non-Arch/Art courses.

@bathsh3ba, all in all, if I were your DD I would study in the UK and apply for J-1 visas for summer work and travel in the US. With a J-1 ('Exchange visitor visa') she can work in any position, anywhere, including but not limited to an architectural firm, engineering firm, etc. Most students wait tables or work as camp counselors at sleep away summer camps. This might be a good way for her to dip her toes in the American waters in more ways than one.

Having said all that, however, she need not get an architecture degree in order to eventually work as an architect in the US. The National Architectural Accrediting Board (NAAB) is the accrediting body for architects in the US and will accredit those with a three-year Masters in Architecture, which can be done after a degree in a subject not necessarily related to architecture. Your DD would be looking at a total of seven years of study, and postgrad student aid availability needs to be studied carefully before committing.

I suppose my point is she could do engineering, physics, urban studies, applied mathematics, etc for a BA, with a heavy art component thanks to the broad US university curriculum, and still end up as an architect. By choosing this alternative path to architecture she widens the target for herself as architecture at undergrad level is a tough one to get into and get financial aid as an international student.

But you need to have a long and detailed chat with someone in an architecture faculty or an architecture advisor before committing to this. Yo and DD need to sit down and read academic catalogues very, very thoroughly, and compile lists of questions. Then contact the universities directly.

All in all, strongest advice is to do her undergrad in the UK, work summers in the US preferably in architecture / engineering firms, and then if she still has the American bug, do a postgrad there.

{she need not get an undergrad architecture degree in order to eventually work as an architect in the US.}

Whoops! She definitely will need some sort of arch degree to work as an architect...

I was not talking about NCAA scholarships.

The more selective US Universities, say places like Brown, Bowdoin and Northwestern (three random names I heard on sidelines) are looking for rounded individuals. Sport, leadership, music, that sort of thing. Students who can contribute to the college community. It is very different from the UK where Extra-Curricular rarely count - though a few UK universities do seem willing to give reduced offers and sports bursaries for outstanding sportspeople.

The point is not to get money off, but to get in. Indeed my understanding is that there is no money attached to sports scholarships in places like Harvard, just the standard needs-blind provisions. As I understand it, and backed up with evidence from the recent US admissions scandal, a reference from a college sports coach, as in "I want them for my team" helps with admissions. You still need the academics and the essays and the references. If a college will need a bassoonist for their orchestra as their current bassoonist is about to graduate, that bassoonist will have an advantage over other applicants in the same position.

As I said up thread, people put a lot of research into the best value, ie the college with the best reputation that their child is likely to get into, and then how to ensure they are well placed to be accepted. Studying in the US is seriously expensive.

UK applicants can have an advantage in that some sports we play are not majority sports in the US, yet some colleges run teams. Things like rugby and field hockey. School rowing is also relatively strong in the UK, as is men's soccer. (Women's football has a far broader base in the US, but coaching in the UK can be very good.) Good county or regional level is normally enough. But...as I was told, the college needs to want you. They won't need four hockey goal keepers but they will need one.

This also applies to the really big names. DD saw peers in her major sport get places at Stanford, MIT, Harvard, Yale and others. It appeared that the better you were at the sport the more slack there was on the academics. So a very bright girl got admitted for her sport, but remained a non-travelling reserve, and another, who was knocking on the England team, was named Ivy person of the month for that sport almost as soon as she arrived. The standard is good but not stellar. Good coaches in the UK often have contacts in the US, so the dialogue can begin early, though equally some seems initiated by parents. (Another reason why it is easier to go to a sixth form with experience in US admissions. For example the American School Cobham has one of the best girls soccer teams in the country, and Millfield has contacts all over the place.)

This is in contrast to the recruitment carried out by serious sports colleges. For example in soccer they are talking to Premiership Academies about kids who are narrowing failing to progress to the first team. This is a report by one boy who went to Seton Hall University, not on the radar for the London mums we knew but well known for its soccer team.
www.afcb.co.uk/news/under-21s/boote-living-american-dream/ As mathanxiety says, eligible kids will have been on the radar for years, as they will be taking part in National and International competition.

The leagues, that DS' University (which is known for its academics rather than its sports) is in, require athletes to retain a certain grade point average, or face penalties. You can't just be a jock. They are always on the look out for PhD students wanting to be paid to provide support and tutoring. I thought it would be an interesting opportunity to meet different members of campus. He did not agree, and wound up doing some marking on the MBA programme instead.

On the references, the British tendency to understate talents and achievements is seen as a problem by London based US moms. Its fine with schools with experience of US admissions. But others are apparently inclined to use words like "quite", when an American might use "very". French applicants apparently have the same problem when applying to the UK, and I assume it might also apply to US applicants applying to, say, Oxbridge. The school needs to understand what the recruiters are looking for. Given US applications are complex, and competition for top schools is intense, this can be quite a learning curve.

But a disclaimer. The monied US community in London probably has more parallels with Manhattan and the East Coast, than it does much of the US. There are more than a thousand Universities in the US. Things vary immensely.

My point was that the videos the mothers were making were never going to end up in any application portfolio. They were destined to be shared with grandparents and other rellies.

It sounds as if the parents you encounter seem to engage in a lot of uncouth trash talking. They are signalling that they can afford to send Junior to places like Bowdoin, Brown, and Northwestern. There are classier Americans out there, believe me. (I am in the US).

When it comes to performing arts and sports, it isn't as simple as one bassoonist out, one in or one goalie out, one in. Universities choose according to talent and potential and trainability.

There might be five bassoonists admitted who would all compete for the chair in the orchestra, but there would also be jazz ensembles and other outlets for the four leftover bassoonists. Universities with particularly strong performing arts programmes will admit however many potentially great bassoonists come a-knocking.

With sports, it's often the case that a high school athlete playing a certain position will find him or herself playing somewhere else on the field in university. Many promising teenage quarterbacks find themselves playing wide receiver in college. Athleticism counts and ability to learn from a coach too. A good record at one position doesn't necessarily, unless you are absolutely outstanding and even then you need to be able to learn.

NCAA scholarships require a minimum GPA. Some schools make it easier for athletes to pass courses, some have mickey mouse courses just for athletes. The NCAA looks askance at these practices.

If she decides on something other than architecture, maybe consider doing a course which has a US placement? I had a year in the US, but just paid my normal fees to the UK uni, and had the usual student loan. Still had to pay a bit extra for flights etc of course, but it was by far the cheaper way. A few others who did the same now live in the US, it is definitely harder to achieve now than a few years back though.

Much much easier, it is more to do with money than academic achievement.

Also A-levels are college level classes so UK students are well ahead of their US counterparts even those with APs.

For architecture it is worth remembering that many universities do expect undergrads to do a placement. This might even be with a top class international firm. There could then be opportunities for employment in the USA if the undergrad gets a job with one of these international firms.

I’m not sure which, if any, architecture schools have a year abroad in the USA. Bath do one to 6 European countries. However employment with an international company certainly opens up doors in the USA.

It sounds as if the parents you encounter seem to engage in a lot of uncouth trash talking.

A bit rude.

UK based parents act just the same as US parents, and indeed the same as the advice OP has received.

In the US, I understand though can be corrected, students will often look at in-State which is cheaper, and then some "stretch" out of state schools, often Ivies or equivalents. The thinking being that if you get into Harvard it is worth the extra cost.

The same happens in the UK, or in the monied circles I was observing. (Like in Manhattan, there are people in London who don't have ask the price of things. Money for college is assumed, not boasted about.)

Students apply to big name colleges. Their parents want their children to effectively follow in their footsteps, and see such colleges as a good way to open the door to a high flying international career.

If they don't get in their plan B is an RG British University, with a year abroad in the US. STEM and vocational (medicine, architecture, sometimes law) often stay in the UK and plan a Masters or internship in the US.

A similar decision making happens with DC from other Countries. French applicants seeking an international education will often apply to both the US and the UK (and indeed Ireland). One of DS' friends from Thailand, was told by her father that he would only consider paying for her to go to the the US if she got into HYP/MIT/Stanford. Otherwise her offer for a three year degree from LSE represented better value, at least in terms of name recognition and employability in Asia.

I have not lived in the US for a very long time, so can only go on what I am told. I suspect the process is different for applicants from the UK, especially when they are offering sports which are more frequently played in the UK, as most coaches will not know anything about the US process. In contrast US college coaches probably know quite a lot about the sport in the UK/Europe and be open to recruiting from there. (At one point DD went on a training camp in Holland with some of the US junior team and, frankly, they were not of the same standard.) I was only repeating what I was told. However the DC in question were at a not-particularly selective school in the Home Counties, probably without much experience in US admissions, whereas the mum was super organised. (I am still grateful for her advice on bathroom refurbishment.) The son was at a big name University, levered in by playing a minority sport, but had made the US National team which his University seemed to love. The DD also went onto a good US University. I assume that coaches were willing to communicate with the mum rather than a school/club sports coach because they were in the UK and the girl was playing for the South East England regional team. And that they asked for videos, perhaps just in the first instance, because they did not have the budget a major sport might have. She may have been lying, as may have others, but I don't see why.

(At 15/16 DD was competing nationally in one sport, playing for her county in another, and performing with a regional arts organisation. She still got her GCSE's, god knows how. Her days would start at 6.00am and rarely finished until 8.30pm, and weekends were training, performance and competition. I met a lot of other mums. Interestingly her sixth form, who sent about 30 a year to the US, said that DD would have been easy to place.)

But its a bit arcane, and sorry for boring people.

Also A-levels are college level classes so UK students are well ahead of their US counterparts even those with APs.

Not necessarily - a lot of US high school students do college level classes while at high school. My DD finished her US high school curriculum at 16, then moved onto college level courses from then on.

I didn't say nobody else trash talks. You just happened to mention the American mothers. That's what it is, btw, and it's not rude to call it what it is - it's bluster with a slightly malign intent.

US students each apply to a lot of universities if they are hoping to get an offer from a good one. Usually there are 'reach' schools, sure bets, and safety schools. You calculate which schools are which based on your GPA, your SAT/ACT scores, and the strength of your extra curricular record (but mainly your academic record).

Students have varying priorities too - maybe a state school has a top ranked engineering programme. Maybe doing theology in Princeton would leave you with $200,000 in debt upon graduation and it wouldn't be worth it. Maybe a high school grad wants to attend a women's college, or to go to a school where he can ski (I know a non-Mormon who went to Brigham Young for this reason) or somewhere that has warm winters, or a very well regarded nursing programme, or to do aviation but not do it through the Air Force and get a degree as well as a pilot's license (there are two universities with really good aviation programmes). Maybe a student wants a very small school in a very rural setting.

Students who know they can count on significant financial aid from an Ivy and have excellent grades would be crazy not to apply. There are certain extremely selective universities that offer to cover 100% of admitted students' demonstrated need - very often an elite private university can work out cheaper than a state school.

In general, students who have any hope at all of getting into an Ivy or equivalent (Stanford, U Chicago, MIT, etc) will apply. But getting in is a crapshoot. Lucky students in Michigan, Washington, Virginia, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Wisconsin and Texas and a couple of other states have excellent state flagships to rely on. There are many schools that are less well known in the UK that are excellent. Sure bets (pretty sure bets anyway, these places are crapshoots too) would be somewhere like William and Mary, NYU, Kenyon, Grinnell, Georgetown, Carleton. For a lot of students applying to an Ivy League school a state school would be the safety ('if all else fails').

Wrt APs - US universities often waive 100 level courses if students have achieved a 4 or 5 in AP exams.

It's true that students often move on to university level work in high school, especially in mathematics.

Surely the point for the average Brit student wanting to study architecture - is that it’s difficult to get into an American university and not have to pay $$$$$. Whatever the university it costs more there than here!

Usa parents always know the costs from birth and have saved if they can. Often applying in State saves $$$ too. Having talked to parents at William and Mary there is a great saving to Virginia residents. American moms in the uk are not the yardstick on which to base applications if you are a standard uk student. They are in a totally different position.

That's how it appears on the surface, @My0My. However, there are ways and means...

A truly great UK student could conceivably get into MIT or possibly Cornell (iirc) arch and receive terrific financial aid even as an international student.

Equally, a truly great UK prospect could get into several other US universities that offer great international student financial aid, do a subject other than architecture (it isn't offered everywhere) and then do a Masters (but they would need to nail down finaid prospects for this as an international student before embarking on this route to architecture) and seek accreditation through the professional licensing body (which all arch grads have to do regardless of how they get their qualification).

American parents try to save, but quite honestly, few can afford to put much aside. This is a huge political issue in the US now because a university degree means a huge differential in income over the course of a lifetime but it is very difficult for MC parents to afford that gateway for their children. The very rich have no difficulties and the very poor but very bright can access excellent universities. But those in the middle academically and in terms of income are squeezed out.

They rely on financial aid and they swallow hard and remortgage their houses, take out parent loans, sell a big house and move somewhere much smaller, or they take on extra jobs. Students work while at university and take out loans that are repayable beginning six months after graduation regardless of financial circumstances.

William and Mary is a Virginia state school so yes, VA residents get a good deal there. Afaik, they do not offer finaid to non VA applicants. I could be wrong on this though.

Agree that US citizens in the UK are not a good source of info wrt applications as they are dealing with a completely different set of financial considerations and also different academic and extra curricular documentation.

I rather did feel the middle tranche of students might well be forced into state universities with a discount for being an in-state student. But these universities can be great or not so great. When in the USA we also visited The University of Virginia at Charlottesville as well as William and Mary - just as tourists. I think British students overlook such impressive institutions but whether their generosity is available to Brits, I’m not sure!!

I fully understand that brilliant students will get in and get funding for the top ranking universities but for the average student from families with decent salaries, lots of universities are expensive in the USA when compared to ones here.

The op asked about architecture which is why I referred to architecture. I actually think we train architects very well in the uk.

No, UVA doesn't offer great finaid even to US students who are not VA residents. Getting in to an out of state state school isn't guaranteed even for students who are in the top tier either. First dibs go to in-state students and in many states there are ample well qualified applicants.

One of my DDs was headed for architecture at the time of the economic meltdown of 2008. She was in her first year of university but was able to transfer to another university and work for another major altogether, and hasn't regretted her decision to drop it. She would have graduated with three years of grads ahead of her all looking for jobs in the same hard hit industry if she had stayed on course.

Architecture is a bell weather of the economic fortunes of most developed countries. Plus anyone else associated with buildings. They are boom or bust! However if you love it, and are an inspired architect, then you can be successful. But it’s hard - we know quite a few architects!

I’ve just been reading this thread as DD would like to study in America however I think it is worth investigating degrees in the UK with a year in America, does anyone know of any UK universities that offer degrees with placement years in America?

any UK universities that offer degrees with placement years in America?

A friend's DC at Hertfordshire spent a year in California (can't remember where, though, I'm afraid). Herts may not be quite what your DD was considering, of course.