American universities

[bathsh3ba]

Can anyone advise me on how difficult/easy it is to get into an American university as a British student (not the top universities but a decent one)? Also how much it costs given that I assume no bursaries/loans are available to overseas students?

My youngest really wants to do this and I'm trying to figure out how much I'd have to save up and if I need to dash her hopes now or if it might be feasible.

OP, we have amazing schools of architecture here in the UK.
She could do a post-grad in the States, for example at the Rhode Island School of Design (my brother went there for his degree in architecture. What a school! Providence is a wonderful town. And post-grad would be more affordable and doable).

I'd get my degree from Sheffield or UCL Bartlett. Both schools have phenomenal facilities. Breathtaking.

For Architecture? I wouldn’t go to the US for under-grad. That’s effectively self-sabotage unless she gets into MIT or Harvard. Bartlett should be where she is aiming for and she can make decisions from there.
I didn’t know some places were removing the necessity for SAT though. Interesting.

The situation in the US is very complex and confusing, but it is not true that all schools demand the SAT. It is not true that need based scholarships are always dependent on citizenship.

5 universities have fully need-blind admissions for foreigners as well as US citizens. If you have a family income of under about $65,000, your tuition, living expenses, health care (and sometimes other things like travel) will be almost completely covered at Harvard, Yale, Princeton, MIT, or Amhearst. My son, who grew up in the UK and went to one of these US universities, says it's hard to get in because 'it requires a kind of bullshitting that British students aren't trained in'.

I am just saying this because I want to warn the OP that not everything people are saying is accurate.

PurrBox, I am not sure who your remarks were aimed at. DD was sporty so I met lots of US mums at matches desperate to capture their children's starring moments on video. I heard quite bit about US admissions. Apparently if you are adding sport or music to your application a lot depends on whether the College has graduating seniors so need a new bassoonist for their orchestra or a new field hockey goal keeper for their teams.

But your remarks about blowing your own trumpet are right. One problem is that British schools don't write the very glowing references that their US counterparts will. And its hard to give a class position everyone is taking different A levels. It is a real advantage to be at a school that knows the ropes.

Sorry Needmoresleep my remarks weren't aimed at anyone. I repeated what my son said about admissions, because it is true though it is certainly not the whole truth (2 of my kids went to US universities).

People on Mumsnet say a lot of stuff about getting into US universities, and about paying for them, and the reality is that it is complicated and there are very few generalisations you can make.

If someone is really eager to study in the US there can be ways to make it work without getting into debt.

We looked into this few years ago.

There’s a great College Fair in London which is worth going to to speak to people and get loads of prospectuses etc (not sure how this will work in the age of Covid)

SAT preparation is key - especially if candidate has dropped maths after GCSE or has specialised in science and dropped essay subjects. There’s a particular technique. DS did a course in London in the summer after GCSE (£500) and the mock test scores informed where we looked (each College will say the score they will expect for entrance).

The school/college is much more involved in the application process than UCAS- they have to do various paperworj in support of the application. You need to find a staff member familiar with the process or willing to take time to learn.

Offers are made before A level exams are taken. Would your child be motivated to carry in and take exams that have no impact?

We went to visit the College we liked the look of. They love overseas students as they pay big bucks!! It would have been around $50,000 all in. We were told that A level study is at the same level as first year College courses. It was implied that as he was predicted high A level headed they would accept him regardless of SAT score. See above re big bucks!!!

Student life is very different. First you are likely to have to share a bedroom with at least one other person. There’s no real culture of moving off campus after the first year, I got more of a boarding school vibe. Kids don’t cook for themselves etc like they do in UK.

You have to study a variety of subjects for at least 2 years before you specialise. For us this was the main attraction of the US system. But most professions require a post grad degree.

We didn’t look seriously into visa issues but I can’t see the US system being more generous for foreign graduates than we are - the dream of being able to stay on and live there may be just that. It’s not automatic.

For a variety of reasons my DS decided against it.

Did they stay in the US or return?

A distinct reason for London based US families to send their kids to the US, is that by the time they are graduating, the dad is thinking of retiring, so they buy a retirement house, the mom spends more time over there getting it ready and the kids stay on so the family reunites back in the US.

Though honestly now the cost of health care on top of the cost of University is starting to influence decisions about where to spend your retirement.

A further observation was that STEM students tended to stay in the UK and only go to the US for Masters. Liberal Arts went to the US for UG and then perhaps returned to the UK for Masters. Vocational courses such as medicine were done in the UK (much cheaper) though I have noticed people taking a gap year after F2 and heading for the US to do something related for a year. I assume the same would apply to architecture.

I have no idea whether DS will stay on. He is in a very nice University town with a lovely campus, though within striking distance of a city, s not really America. A lots will depend on jobs, but like many Brits, I suspect his preference is to return home.

Saying it’s only worth it if Ivy League is not correct (well, crazy high fees aside). There are lots of weird little universities in America, but loads of very highly rated non-Ivy League as well. Off the top of my head, University of California (Berkeley), University of Chicago, MIT, Brandeis, Columbia, Stanford.

There are around 11,000 people enrolled at USA universities in any one year but the vast majority are there for post grad and sport, and there are university academics and employees who are doing further study and research. Undergrads are a minority. It can look like lots apply and go (snd they do from swish private schools) but this isn’t the case from the majority of standard state schools.

I suggest your DD looks at RIBA and how an architect actually gets qualified here. There are opportunities to work abroad and study abroad but I would get qualified here unless she really is going to get a substantial scholarship. I’m not sure there is any evidence that an architect in the USA gains anything above a British qualified architect.

Also, Bath, Cambridge and Sheffield are top architecture schools. What’s not to like about them?

Columbia is Ivy surely?

It depends what you want. If STEM, MIT and Caltech are front runners. If Liberal Arts there are good reasons to look at Junior Ivies, predominantly UG colleges such Swathmore or Amhurst. If you want the South, Duke has a good choice and has some world top ranking departments.

People we knew were often on the look out for "good value", ie the best course you could get into given SATS and the strength of your application. Places like Babson, partnered with Wellesley and Olin, if you wanted to study entrepreneurship. Or for French speakers joint degrees between Columbia and 3 top ranking French Universities, graduating from both.

US University applications are complex, especially if you are trying for the more competitive ones. People do a lot of research. (Or hire consultants at £10,000+ a time...)

There are around 11,000 people enrolled at USA universities in any one year

Do you mean British people?

Also—forgive me if it’s been mentioned, as I’m skim-reading the thread—it’s not just SATs. For many, if not most, middle American/Western American high schools the ACTs are the norm for university entry testing.

Oh, you’re right! I didn’t realize Columbia was Ivy League.

Don't worry. Its a bit of an arcane subject.

But evidence that there is a difference between reputation in the US and reputation outside the US. DC's school went out of their way to emphasise that Harvard/Yale/Princeton were not the only good options. Indeed often not the best option. The Ivy League, after all, is a football league.

The Ivy League, after all, is a football league.

Indeed. To be fair, all major universities, State or Private, probably fall within a football league (gridiron).

But your point is a good one—there are so many American universities with specialist departments rated exceptionally well, internationally as well as nationally.

Indiana University has an amazing music programme. And it’s a hell of a lot more affordable than Juilliard.

I wouldn’t attend Harvard for certain subjects, and I would definitely encourage the OP to clarify her child’s thinking regarding “American university.”

Focus first on subject then bore down to the top contenders. There is so much from which to choose.

My friends DS did well in the SAT and took another entrance exam, I can’t remember the name. He’s in a state comprehensive sixth form. He’s been offered a full scholarship to Princeton and has turned down similar from Stanford. So it’s possible to do if you’re what they are looking for. He has an interview at Cambridge but didn’t get an offer.

He’s not sure if he’ll go, though, because of coronavirus. I think he’s likely to take a gap year and I’m not sure if the offer can be deferred.

*had an interview at Cambridge

The figure I gave was the number of Brits studying at USA universities in total. Funding is easier to get for post grad and don’t forget there are exchange students too. Undergrad is more difficult if you are ordinary and most people we know who have gone as undergrads are either very rich or on sports scholarships. Of course the very bright can get the needs blind scholarships too where they are offered. Most bursaries and scholarships are not available to overseas students though - only the academic ones and of course the competition is fierce. Nothing to stop anyone trying but I fail to see why you would for Architecture. The debate seems to have forgotten the subject the op asked about. The architecture schools here are world class. Failing that, look at where architects trained at the top firms. How many in the USA and at which universities? Then work out the realistic cost and how long is the course? It’s 5 years here plus 2 years working I believe. How much is it in the USA?

A note about SAT/ACT. I live in the US and my daughter will be applying to universities this year.

Because of Covid the SATs earlier this year were cancelled, and the earliest they are likely to happen is August, and there are big question marks around that. ACT is offering some tests in June but many have been cancelled, so it is not a valid nationwide test either at the moment.

As a result a lot of colleges are not requiring SAT/ACT scores this year. That doesn't necessarily mean they're dropping them for every year. My DD is still planning to take the SAT if she gets the chance.

The other tests that students usually take are AP exams, which are likely A levels but not quite as in-depth, as they tend to be a 1-year course. Those did happen this year, but instead of being a 3-hour exam they were a 45 minute online test.

I'm assuming SAT subject tests also did not happen this year (DD is not taking them anyway so I haven't been keeping an eye on it).

PurrBox: my DD got a place to study art at a New York university. She got a small scholarship which was needs blind. What else could we have done to pay £0? I couldn’t find a single bit of help for a uk citizen to lessen the fees. And believe me, I looked. The universities with huge alumni pots might well support foreign students but our earnings cut that out at her university. The costs would have been around $70,000 pa x 4 years. I would love to know what stone I left unturned. The course wasn’t the Ivy League type course!

Hi Bubbles I am sorry your dd couldn't take her place in NY . I was just saying that there are 5 universities (+ 2 more small specialised colleges) which have the need blind policy I outlined. My kids were lucky enough to go to two of these universities, and I want to mention that this opportunity exists for international students. I am sorry that I don't know about other ways of funding university in the US, if you want to go to a different school.

Bubbles. Did she try for post grad. We know someone who landed a year long Fulbright which enabled her DC to attend the school.your DD wanted to go to. And a friend of DDs, at Reading U, was final short list for a similar award to complete a one year PG course.

I think funders prefer one year courses, as they can then make four times as many awards as if they were funding one year courses.

threads like this always remind me how much I don't fit in on MN.

My nephew (American) just got accepted to Princeton. He planned how to get into a Uni like that for last 2-3 years. It's a big deal. We don't know people who went to Ivy League, but we know plenty of people who failed to get in.. 4% acceptance rate. Good thing Princeton is needs blind bc nephew's parents have low income. Nephew's dad is on unemployment & mum only works PT.

DD1 was educated at American international schools from primary through to age 18. She has an American High School Diploma and the IB. Most of her non-British peers went to university in the US. The school was very well set up for US university entrance, ran coaching sessions for SATs and visits to US universities. If your child is serious about wanting to study in the US, I would strongly recommend sixth form (and IB or AP) in an American school as they are simply much better set up to help with the preparation. Although schools like ACS and TASIS London are an absolute huge money suck. Ditto ASP, but chances of getting in if you’re not American seem to be quite low.

ASL not ASP!

Lljkk, it’s a geography thing. We live in Central London. Lots of international Ivy educated parents. Same ambitions for their DC. And people started planning from about age 8. Triathlon coaches, research trips to Africa funded by the family foundation. Pretty unreal though I assume Manhattan would be worse.

DD knows three who went to Princeton. Eight in her school year were offered Harvard places, and a ninth from another local school. But no need to go at UG level. If you are good, a one years Masters in the US following a three year UK UG degree will get you as far if not further.

Quite glad to be out of it.