Solicitor apprenticeship

[questioner123]

Hi everyone

I'm looking for your opinions please on whether you would encourage your DC to take up a solicitor apprenticeship with a city firm or go to a top uni to study Law...

Many thanks

No I suspect the difference between us may have been less about recession and more that I had been at one of the old merchant banks first Xenia, as a graduate trainee. Slaughter and May is a lovely firm still although now in a far swisher building for the new generation of trainees - lucky them.

I would really worry about the social side of life OP and do wonder if the trainees at the firm would socialise with the apprentices. I think they probably wouldn't, given the age difference. As you rightly say, it's about the best shot at happiness. I knew lots of people in the law community who were really actors or writers or all sorts of other things at heart but had gone lemming like into law. I'm not at all sure that law in itself is a sure route to happiness, even if you like it. Happiness will depend far more on community and people.

Although I can certainly see some merits in an apprenticeship, especially at a large firm where there are at least lots of people buzzing about, even if not a similar age. A small firm would be a no no from the start.

For me/ my DC that is.

Not a lawyer, but reading your posts it seems as much about your DD being worried about next steps after a set back.

The answer may then lie in why she had problems first time round.

My DD really struggled in her first year at University, which came as a surprise not least because she had moved for sixth form and settled instantly and then had no problems when working overseas during her gap year. Looking back it was pure and simple bullying. The alpha female in her flat of twelve effectively acted as if she was in Yr7. It took most of the following year, sharing with lovely people, and a nice group of friends, for DD to regain her confidence. Your daughter's problems may have had a different root but from what you say she was not struggling academically.

Whatever she chooses, and your posts suggest she is inclined towards giving University another shot, she has a few months to build some resilience and skills in friendship building.

What kept DD going was having made friends through sport, and another good friend on her course. There is an assumption that you go to University and live in halls in order to make friends, but it does not always work out that way and having friends from other contexts is a big help. It can also be difficult for young people who have had a strong friendship group at school to branch out and make new friends, especially if it involves making the first move.

What interests her? What might she like to carry on with whilst working or at University? Drama, sport, volunteering. She can join clubs/groups in London or at weekends. (I still think.she should explore private halls for her first year. And ask the college that she will be attending about any social life they help facilitate - it must be a common problem. Plus they offer undergraduate degrees.)

If she started now joining or getting involved in a couple of things locally, it should help build her confidence and get her used to being outside her comfort zone. And ready to engage wherever she ends up.

It wont help with the choice, but will help with her thriving next year.

Two fantastic opportunities, which is a good start. She needs to weigh up pros and cons carefully and then go with her heart.

The university offer is Nottingham. It’s BPP London part time for the apprenticeship. However that would also be a source of friends. The long commute is worrying though.

I know. But BPP also offer degrees, so I assume, and could probably google, they also offer/signpost to accommodation and have some student experience.

I recognise some posters here are very negative about the London experience, but it suits some DC. Including some who have struggled elsewhere.

Before making a decision it may be worth thinking about pros and cons as they apply to her and which problems can be finessed.

There seems to be an ongoing assumption that any DC that does not fit the MN mould is some sad Billy No Mates, when in fact they are entitled to be different and to work out what is the right fit for them.

It’s one day a week online with BPP though.

Ahh. Ignore me then.

We have seen a few sensible kids go on to study degrees at BPP, so assume it is an OK experience. But on line is different. That said I suspect some of the new private student halls will be open to apprenticeships and those studying for non degree qualifications. Expensive, but so to is commuting.

Oh! I didn’t realise it was online. I missed that. That is quite isolating.

This is what BPP say about their apprenticeship law degree.

I think that would be very difficult, an online law degree, one day a week,.

Much of law is of course self study and researching what laws, interpretations etc, but much of it is also about your own interpretation of those laws, learning how to decide which laws apply and how to apply them, then to build your arguments.

I’m not sure how Easy that will be to do basically virtually.

In addition the four hour round trip commute will get old fast.

Hi everyone. Firstly, bubbles you haven’t offended me and I welcome everyone’s opinions to help my DD!

Needmoresleep, I’m sorry to hear what happened to your DD, that’s horrible. Glad she is happy now. A similar thing happened to my DD- was bullied by a girl who was her so-called “friend” and it got worse and worse, forcing her to leave. DD has lost a lot of confidence after this and is scared about the unpredictability of uni as this may happen again and she would be further away from home this time. However she has usually always been good at making friends!

So the apprenticeship would take away this stress for her and risk. It is certainly the less risky option in many aspects. However, she says she will miss studying the law in depth like you do at uni and the wide range of options. And also the social side of things- that is if you meet nice people and DD is worried about this considering what happened last time!! I (and DD) are also concerned about the online studying. You do 1 academic module a term and one practical, work based module.

However the horror stories of 1st class law graduates from red-brick universities struggling to get a TC and having to take low-paid jobs instead is really off putting.

We are getting much closer to the decision and considering all aspects is definitely helpful. Just to add, DD has years of volunteering experience and is doing lots in her time off now (after months of getting it organised) such as volunteering for the CAB, women’s centres, homeless shelters and animal rescues, plus paid work, plus volunteering during sixth form. Plus 3 days experience in a law firm- so maybe this reduces the risk or not getting a TC? Thanks for all your help everyone- it amazes me the support on mumsnet!

Honestly OP, I started out by saying that while yes, of course it's competitive, it's not supremely difficult but it is about much more than getting a first class degree. Otherwise those without firsts would never get to MC firms! Those with firsts/ predicted firsts who don't succeed will simply lack the particular bent required for this sort of law. Getting a first is a decent starting point but it's absolutely not the end. It's perfectly possible to get a first and be as dull as ditchwater, or entirely unsuited to life in a big City firm - so I wouldn't give that group another thought. Lots and lots of people get places with 2.1s; if it was all about grades then they never would.

Ghastly alpha females. I feel very sorry for Needmoresleep's DD and for yours too OP.

The more we hear the harder it is to know which is best. I am certainly glad my children had the university experience although I don't think my non-lawyer son got much out of it and by his last 2 years was just driving to Reading for lectures (playing no other part in university life) - although even he says he is glad he got his degree.

One of my lawyer daughters shares her room at work (or did) with a solicitor apprentice although we have not talked about what the process is like and how it is working for that young girl. My other daughter has a trainee solicitor again in her room - she is the girl's training prinicipal - and that daughter is an in house solicitor - her trainee has a first from a good university and has been doing the LPC part time over 2 years in London - she is just about to finish (assuming she passes her exams). I think that process over 2 years of doing what is usually a one year full time course has worked out well but it has certainly been hard work to do the course at weekends etc whilst working full time. It is quite nice to finish all your exams for ever and only then start a 2 year training contract with all the exams behind you and I hope we can preserve that sequence when the new SQE exams come out.

I tihnk none of us can guarantee that the daughter doing a Nottingham law degree will get a training contract in a good London firm compared with the bird i the hand of the apprenticeship 5 year London trainee offer. On balance I would probaly go for the degree but I am a bit of a risk taker.

I think the apprenticeships are 6 years. So it’s a much longer route.

Now she has been offered the apprenticeship, could she not ask to see her potential supervisor to ask about the learning and working in more detail? Could she ask to meet current apprentices? This might help her decide if it’s a good fit. University is more difficult because you really don’t know who else will turn up. A city law firm is more predictable!

I would also consider where she would live in future years. Is the commute going to be sustainable? I assume she was up for it when she applied. Working and studying though means long days. Good luck with her deliberations.

I disagree with Bubbles.

I suspect that it can be difficult to understand the issues that surround setbacks when your own DC have enjoyed smooth paths to stellar careers. I think the issue for OPs DD is how to avoid the problems she had when she first started University, and to avoid further damage to her self confidence.

This may depend on her. In DDs case there has been some silver lining to her disastrous first year. First a couple of strong, and probably lasting friendships, with people who supported her through it all. Second a better confidence that there can be times when you are not at fault and there is little you can do except try to avoid difficult people or at least "grey rock" them. And third a realisation that some people are just troubled, and indeed her observation is that the root cause of domineering behaviour is often insecurity, at University specifically, this has been academic insecurity.

Essentially at 21 she seems to have been able to navigate potential problems relatively smoothly, far better than two years ago. Now she would have just have asked for a move as soon as the problems became out of hand.

If OPs DD thinks she is in a better position to cope should similar circumstances occur, then she should return to University. Perhaps with a strategy inducing some well times visits home, a careful choice of accommodation, knowledge of how to access University welfare processes and indeed perhaps some advance warning of her concerns, a deliberate effort to get to know her tutor early by attending office hours or similar, a deliberate effort to make friends from her course and from activities as well as halls, and open conversation with you when she hits bumps in the road and needs perspective. (We had a lot of this in DDs second year, but it has almost ceased now she has regained her confidence.)

I wish DD had not gone through what she did, but it has made her stronger, albeit less trusting, and has probably helped her on the practical and group working aspects of her course.

Yes, (it’s your role to disagree with me!) but your Dc have not competed for law jobs, needmoresleep. Law grads are not guaranteed to get anything, unlike medics. It’s not just about university experience but many of us do want this for our DC and recognise the advantages. My DD barrister didn’t even think about this career before university so meeting others at university and finding out about being a barrister had a transformational effect!

Unfortunately thousands of law grads simply don’t get the law training contracts they want. Around 50% of these go to non law grads anyway: it’s quite simply a different world from many other degrees taken by high achievers. It is highly possible that this DD will be well placed after a degree but it’s not a given. So it needs to be weighed up very carefully and speaking further to the law firm really could help with decision making. A bird in the hand might be worth more but the OP and her DD will have to take everything into consideration including a certain nervousness about university. That’s understandable.

I was clear that I could not comment on the legal career aspect. However I feel I am qualified to contribute on issues around having DC who had an unhappy start to University. (I suspect the only reason DD did not drop out and start again elsewhere was because medics can't.)

Effectively I am suggesting that there is a different problem at the heart of OPs question, and so am answering that

I am very aware that you have a lot of experience in and knowledge about law. However I think, given OPs daughter has two excellent options the crucial think is to find the option that will minimise the risk that she is unhappy.

In short, if she feels she understands what went wrong first time at University and that she can avoid similar problems a second time round, I think she should go. It sounds as if she wants to. If she cant face University again, she should take the Apprenticeship, recognise potential problems and ensure she takes steps to create a good work/life balance.

There are potential problems with both routes. That’s the problem! So one cannot say another go at university will be roses all
the way. Ditto with the apprenticeship. It’s definitely opting for a law career early with the apprenticeship and university provides an opportunity for reflection and a change of career plan. That might not matter but for some it could. For some it means no law career at all. Difficult isn’t it?

My daughter is in her third year of the level 7 solicitor apprenticeship with Kennedy’s Law (London office) and BPP. She has had excellent support from the firm and the university from the very beginning. She is given one day a week to study and attend lectures and has a group of friends from uni that she goes out for drinks and meals with. They support each other particularly in the run up to exams.
My daughter loves working at her firm and her team are very nurturing. She works long hours but some of this involves eating, drinking and socialising with clients and colleagues. She is a valued member of the team and often supports new trainees. She was rewarded with a large pay rise at the end of her second year and earns enough to rent in central London, live well and save money for trips abroad which she loves. She has no debt and at the end of the 6/7 year apprenticeship will have her Law degree and qualifying solicitor status. The idea is that she will stay with the firm after this. She is travelling to Australia later this year and will spend some time working at the firms office in Sydney. She has a good social life with colleagues outside work.
Remember that this is not the same as the university experience of spending all the time with other teenagers and having long holidays. A high level of maturity is required. Apprentices will need to see out the 6 years or so before receiving the degree so it is a long term commitment.
Also, there is a lot of competition for places on level 7 apprenticeships. My daughter got all A’s and A*’s in her A levels and EPQ and had numerous interviews before being accepted. She applied to several law firms and one had a three day interview process so the hotel bills do mount up ( we live far away from London).
She has never looked back or questioned her choice and feels lucky to have bagged the position. She was sure that being a solicitor was for her though. She made this decision towards the end of sixth form. We do not have any lawyers in the family. Most family members went down traditional university routes and her school wanted her to accept her Russell group university offers. Many people think that apprenticeships are a lesser choice so I hope increasing amounts of level 7 apprenticeships will change this view. She is very pleased that she chose her route.
Visit Kennedy’s trainee and apprentices Facebook pages for more information and articles about specific apprentices around the country. Hope this helps x

I would really worry about the social side of life OP and do wonder if the trainees at the firm would socialise with the apprentices

I wouldn't worry about that . I didn't gel with the other trainees in my MC firm due to not being from a well off enough background, so I socialised with the paralegals and secretaries instead!

Yes there is age gap but a 19 year old can talk to a 23 year old.

If my son were offered a legal apprenticeship I would go for it. A bird in the hand and you still get a degree so you can do something else afterwards if you want to. A 3 year degree plus LPC (or now this horrifying SQE that you're somehow supposed to study for while working - yes I know accountants have done that for eons, but it's a nonsense in my view) and then no training contract to show for all the debt?

There is no way I would have got a training contract now, I see some incredibly bright and well qualified people not making it, or taking years - much brighter than I am. So I would definitely say if you've got an apprenticeship offer, take it.