Solicitor apprenticeship

[questioner123]

Hi everyone

I'm looking for your opinions please on whether you would encourage your DC to take up a solicitor apprenticeship with a city firm or go to a top uni to study Law...

Many thanks

@bubblesbuddy she’s be slightly less desirable as a hire than other trainees at her firm. If it’s a magic circle (although I’m pretty sure they don’t do apprenticeships yet) or similar then fine. But if it’s a dead end firm she’s better off getting a degree and trying to get into a good firm.

Hi everyone- thanks so much for your comments! Very insightful to hear from an outsiders perspective.

Bubbles- that is exactly the dilemma! It’s a huge, global city firm. So a very good opportunity if she does get offered it. But she is equally considering university as she says she would also want the uni experience. I have no idea how she would make a decision!

Also, does anyone know what her options would be like later on in her career e.g. if she wants to change firms/career etc with a degree from BPP and qualifying through an apprenticeship? Do you think she would be looked upon favourably...

I had a relative who some years ago did a law degree at London University but could not get into a good firm because she ''did not know the right people'' and then joined the Crown Prosecution Service which she hated.

Certainy these days to get into big firms is not a knowing the right people thing - the process is about passing various tests etc.

I think it's a good idea in terms of finances but it totally depends if you want to miss out on the university experience.

And as pp's have said, having a law degree keeps options open, you don't have to become a lawyer.

I think it is a difficult one but a bird in the hand, even if you are a canary, is well worth considering. Good luck to her whatever she decides to do.

If she gets offered the apprenticeship (.I thought she had been offered it) then she would be with this firm for years before being qualified. Then she may well stay for another 10 years! This is normal. By then who will care about her degree? It will be about what she knows, her ability in the job and her networking skills! She wouldn’t be the only one from BPP. Also many large legal firms use BPP. It’s hardly an unknown training provider. By the time she’s 10 years in the job no one will be bothered about her degree.

However, she hasn’t got it yet! Consider the implications further if she does!

I would look at the web site of the firm. Eversheds and Mayer Brown, for example, give detailed info about their apprenticeships. These have been running for a few years now. So they are not totally brand new.

I am a partner in a law firm. My greatest concern is that a law firm is not really a mind-expanding environment. I think it could be soul-destroying for an 18 year old with the academic potential to go to uni.

In a law firm there are no debates, no team chats about controversies, no mock trials - just deadlines, case management, financial targets, etc,etc. This is an over simplification but only just. I don't know about the apprenticeship but I see Eversheds offer it and I don't think Eversheds partners get the luxury of prioritising the expansion of the minds of their trainees or apprenticeships.

I think apprenticeships must work really well in business where you just want to get on and "do"

I did an Apprenticeship with a Big 4 Firm and I think the poster thereisfreedomwithin nailed it.

There is a price to be paid.

I wouldn't be encouraging my Dd to do anything with a two hour commute each way at 18, I did it and it was bloody horrendous.

So if DD won’t do the commute, why apply?

Thanks for your replies. I have been so busy this weekend that I haven't had a chance to reply! I completely understand what you are all saying and it's useful to hear opinions from an outsiders perspective- I will relay to DD. It is very confusing. But yes we will wait until we hear back from the assessment centre and then think about it further.

Regarding the commute, she really didn't realise how far it was, I think, when she applied. Realistically, it's 1.5 hours on a good day, to 1 hour 45 on not so good days.

She could always see if she could defer her university place for 1 year - tell them she needs to earn some money first. Then take up the apprenticeship. She can then see how she gets on without losing anything. If she goes to uni next year she will then have a years experience to put on her cv to help get internships/training contract in the future.

Yes in theory but walking away from an apprenticeship might not be great for the cv. It might not be possible without fees being repaid either. That’s fairly standard for some training agreements. Be careful and read the small print of the contract.

If she is studying with BPP she might well be eligible for one of the many private student halls in London. Expensive, but so is commuting. It would give her some student experience. BPP will probably be able to help.

There are obviously advantages in getting your foot in the door, as graduate training contracts are also very competitive. Could she mentally plan a gap year to take an LLM at a later date.

A lot depends on her. Obviously some will love them student experience’ and not want to miss it. But not all. Others simply want to move forward in their lives, have responsibility and be earning.

Hi everyone- thanks for your opinions again. So DD has got the news she has been offered the apprenticeship- now what to do? I see what everyone is saying but it is so tempting when she has a job and career being offered to her without the debt!

if she wants it and feels ready for full time work and is mature then she should go for it. It sounds like it is a good firm - - but perhaps she might want to compare that firm with some others in London if she thinks she would have the chance to work in an even better firm if she did not go down this route. She should also do a comparison of the apprenticeship pay and look at the stability and accounts (free to check at Comapnies House) of the firm concerned so see if it is a good long term bet for the next 5 years or however long she would need to commit to that firm.

Like a lot of people I did find leaving home for unversity in another City gave me some time to get used to living away from home, diong a lot of university clubs/hobbies and ultimately during my time at post grad law school meeting my husband even.

Her degree from BPP on the apprenticeship will not look good later as BPP is usually just used for post grade LPC etc but after a few years it tends to be how good you are with clients, your reptutation in your legal field, if you even have a client following that will affect your career more than university attended.

On pay here ies an example for one law firm's apprentice programme "- The starting salary for our solicitor apprentices is £16,000 p.a. increasing as you progress through the programme. In your final 2 years you will be paid as a trainee solicitor – currently £38,000 p.a. in the final year." It looks like the one I was looking at takes 6 years so the same as if someone reads law under the current system and you get up to £38k a year by year 6 which is not too different from the trainee solicitor pay in a lot of firms. What I could not see on th epage I was looking at is the commitment after eg if you have to stay with them on £38k for the following 3 years after you qualify of coud you head off to the City at a different firm to get to £100k when you were 3 years qualified for example.

I'd recommend an apprenticeship every time.
DD did one and is now earning more than her mates who went to university, with no loan to pay back.

Some of her mates who have degrees have struggled to get more than call centre jobs. Having the work experience on your CV that an apprenticeship gives you is invaluable IMO.

I think I’d be looking at what qualifications and how long.

It takes six to qualify as a solicitor, and that’s full time , an apprenticeship is clearly part time study. So just how many years will it take?

My daughters law firm is one of the huge ones, and they have an apprentice in her dept. There is little they can do other than basic admin work as they are sitting there with highly qualified paralegals, solicitors, associates and partners, and deeply out of their depth as to be expected. In addition law firms don’t have the time to sit and spoon feed these guys, they really are doing the basic admin.

Basically they are the office junior and it will be many many years before they qualify. It will also be years before they are capable of doing anything really meaningful.

For me, having watched what’s involved in getting to qualification with my daughter I’d also advise your daughter to go via uni.

However I’d look at how capable she is, and her grades, as unless you have a first or 2:1 from a good uni, then a training contract is incredibly hard to achieve.

Blunt, I think it is the same time - 6 years. It is just they are in the office for 6 years but out for studyingn 20% of the time or whatever it is rather than just 2 year of the 6 in the office if they went the university route I think they qualify at exactly the same time as if they had read law at university. It is whether they are then in a ghetto of ex apprentice on £38k no one will hire them or they are seen as as good as a City law firm newly qualified person and put on £60k or whatever. I presume over the 6 years they gradually get more and more responsbility particularly as they pass their LLB exams. The one I was looking at did an "LLB in legal practice" which is not quite the same as an ordinary LLB but I expect it will cover the core requirements of any law degree.

law firms don’t have the time to sit and spoon feed these guys, they really are doing the basic admin

Then they shouldn't be offering apprenticeships and I'm surprised the overseeing body allows them to.

The place where I work has a proper apprenticeship programme, with placement rotation and time to study. Managers are briefed on what the apprentice is expected to cover in each placement.

Apprenticeship for sure - she can always go to university later on in life.

I can’t comment on Law so I’m not sure how helpful I’m being but I have a friend who’s 2 sons both did engineering. One went the traditional uni route and the other did too initially bit dropped out and got an apprenticeship. They both earn the same and are at the same level ( despite the younger one starting later) and one has no debt. I also know someone with 2 dcs who had the same experience with Accounting
My DD may be considering Law in 3 or 4 years and the apprenticeship route is something I will encourage her to consider
As for “the Uni experience” I hated it and wish I had been offered an alternative but as someone who was academic I was pushed into going to Uni, it’s not for everyone.
As I said, no experience of Law so it might be better taking the advice of people in The Industry but that’s just my opinion

I don’t understand how they can qualify in six years and doing it part time, what qualifications are they getting? Is it a degree and CILEx? It doesn’t make much sense that you can study in 20 percent of your time and qualify in the same amount of time as someone who does it full time ie six years.

That’s just over a year of study to be a fully qualified solicitor. Work practice count for something, but it simply can’t be seen as a replacement surely?

And mrs josh, yes, but exactly what do you think an apprentice is capable of straight out of school in a law office, only studying one day a week? The work is complex, highly. Generally solicitors and paralegals don’t have time to sit and train people to the level that would be required to get up to speed quickly, it would be a full time job, so as much as sure they stop doing the admin, but let’s be honest, law is complex, it will be basic work for a very long time.

Maybe it’s me that doesn’t understand it.

Engineering isn’t just about earning. It’s about how quickly, and indeed if, you become a chartered engineer. The quick route is MEng undergrad. This will be quicker than an apprenticeship route in most firms because they offer BEng which leads to a lengthier route to Chartered status. Non apprentice DC get better university choice too. Most employers don’t send apprentices to Imperial or Cambridge. Short term comparisons are not always the best ones.

As for Law: I think she must weigh up what’s in her long term interests and what type of person she is. I’m not clear what firm this is, but the large responsible ones offer a rota in various departments and considerable career guidance. The training is meaningful. Whether, at the end of all this, she will be seen in the same light as an Oxbridge Law grad is debatable. Possibly not by this employer or any other city employer. The highly qualified grads from top universities might still be better placed for promotion. Many city firms have fast track professional qualification courses for their grads at the moment. Therefore I think grads can qualify a bit quicker at the moment because the fast track courses are 7.5 months. These are not universal though. Are the apprentices really viewed as the same? It’s really difficult to weigh this up. I think it totally depends on the firm and the quality of the training because the degree isn’t top drawer from BPP.

She must check the contract she is being offered and decide if she will travel if you cannot subsidise housing in London. The days will be long. Many training contracts start at £40,000 for grads at 21/22. Will she be getting that? She needs to know if she will be allowed to leave the firm without financial penalty. She cannot know what she might have achieved after university. It’s definitely a dilemma!