Solicitor apprenticeship

[questioner123]

Hi everyone

I'm looking for your opinions please on whether you would encourage your DC to take up a solicitor apprenticeship with a city firm or go to a top uni to study Law...

Many thanks

Speaking as a current trainee, I'd grab the apprenticeship with both hands.

I work in house and was eventually offered a training contract by my employer after years as a paralegal. Training contracts are like hens teeth nowadays and many law grads never qualify, partly because law firms hire them as paralegals with the promise of a training contract that never comes. That's if you can get your foot in the door at all.

I really hope that doesn't sound bitter. I absolutely love my job but there are so many routes into law that I wouldn't pass up one of those in the hope of getting a training contract later on, especially with the SQE coming in. A bird in the hand, better the devil you know and all that.

OP you ask posters if they'd encourage their own DC to take up this apprenticeship. For my part, I'd very, very strongly discourage any of my DC from taking that route. i think it would be as dull as ditchwater for an 18yr old and have a major impact on the ability to have a decent social life with their own peer group. I think it would be utterly ghastly. That said, I don't always take the sensible or safe path, but then that path can lead to unhappiness down the line. I'm not sure it's helpful to say that my own DC have had no problems getting Training Contracts, but it does seem to me that the difficulty is overstated for those with a reasonable degree of aptitude for law and the right personality.

I think it depends with training contracts, if you want to go high street it doesn’t seem to be so hard, but if you want to go magic/silver circle or one of rh major global law firms it is very very hard and the competition fierce

I think there is about 3k training contracts per annum v 18 k grads, and of course then you are competing with previous years grads also. But of course not every law grad wants to be a solicitor.

It depends on where you go, but Nottingham is a highly ranked law school, and Russel group. Coming out with a good degree, a high 2:1 or first will certainly improve her chances of a training contract.

I just can’t see how studying for your lLb one day a week via bpp remotely compares, I guess that’s what takes the six years, to compete her degree, the she needs to complete her lpc. Or whatever the new equivalent is, and her two years qualifying, I’m not sure how that’s factored in?

Yes she’s paid to learn, doesn’t have the uni fees, but I just can’t see it as comparable, and that’s if she completes it and doesn’t get sick of it before hand.

I was talking about Magic Circle TCs Bluntness. My DC only applied for those.

Then you know it’s hard.

My daughter starts her training contract after the summer with one of the major global law firms, she’s completing her lpc now. But I’m astounded anyone would say it is not difficult for the Vast majority of students. Thousands chase these places. You can’t even complete the application if you don’t have a two one. And they only look at certain unis.

Even the those involved in the recruitment process for these firms would tell you it’s very hard . You’re all in there with a first pretty much from a set top uni, the application takes approx two days to complete. They have to do an online test, aptitude or similar, video interview, then an assessment day, with group exercises, panel interview, and a test, then onto another final interview.

She came out with a first and got a place, but there are people in her year who also got a first and have not. And they have strived.Sure they can go high st but that’s not what they want.

But saying if you’ve a reasonable aptitude for the law and the right personality it’s not hard getting a training contract at a magic circle law firm is really seriously putting down the effort and work these people put in to get that contract.

And gives the wrong message to the op.

No Bluntness I think it gives a decent message and I think you're generalising from your own DD's experience. I recall your saying she initially had difficulties getting vac schemes etc. I chose my words carefully. If you have a reasonable aptitude and the right personality then I think that getting a TC at a Magic Circle firm is not as hard as MN often makes out. I wouldn't say that all those with TCs have to put in an inhuman amount of effort and work beyond that which goes into their degree and uni life tbh. Being at a very good uni obviously helps.

I would also add that my DCs' assessments were much shorter than the process you describe, but it will differ from firm to firm. DS2 who read History had no legal work experience whatsoever prior to a couple of vac schemes and then had a single interview (no group exercises). He got offers from both Magic Circle firms that he did vac schemes for, but he's very bright and good at conversation which helps enormously in interviews. I also think the tutorial system at Oxford and Cambridge helps in these interview situations.

There is certainly a lot of competition. My older daughter's firm paid for her GDL and LPC. She had to make an application and then had a day of assessments with other people and I think probably an interview before that. This year Clifford Chance have shortened the initial application process because it was putting off people from disadvantaged backgrounds (who presumably cannot be bothered to put in the effort or something....) so that is apparently now a bit shorter but it can be a long process.

I made 139 applications to London firms in the 1980s when there was just a form and CV to complete and had 25 interviews before I got an offer (during my law degree) so I was obviously particularly bad at interviews! however that was not a bad process - I got really used to getting trains to London, speaking to people in interviews and that kind of thing. There were no psychological tests in those days but we were in a horrible recession which was probably part of the problem. The market often goes up and down over the decades.

My second daughter found it harder than the first as she was bang in the middle of the 2008 credit crunch, for example.

No, my daughter never applied for vac schemes, but now I recall your posts, you’ve previously posted how easy it is to get a training contract at a magic law firm and anyone reasonable can get one.

I’m not going to take that discussion again, but I think you’re putting your kids down by downplaying what they needed to achieve.

For me, my daughter has achieved a lot, and I doff my cap to her and will never under play the work she’s put in to get there.

Let’s not derail the thread further. You think it’s easy, I think these kids work their arses off to get there.

I have worked as a solicitor (who qualified through the traditional route) at one of the firms that offers apprenticeships which has been mentioned in this thread. Law is still a very hierarchal profession and I do think there is a still a perception at partner level that juniors should do their time and jump through the hoops that the existing framework dictates. I would worry that this perception would limit the options of someone coming through the apprentice route - have seen this in practice with legal executives.

If it was my daughter I would want her to have the exposure to the world that University offers, the chance to see if law is for her through academic study of it and would want her to have the flexibility to look at alternatives if she decides after a period in practice that it isn’t for her (as many - including me- do). For those reasons I would favour the degree route (legal or otherwise) as a 2:1 degree in a solid subject from a good university will mean she always has options. I’d also have reservations about firms’ commitment to apprenticeships in light of the challenges and changes that the new Solicitors Qualification Exam will bring - although that’s purely anecdotal.

There's no wrong option here they are great choices. Just tell her to think through both lifestyles (can she maybe live independently as an apprentice) and take which her gut excitement is for.

Law is still a very hierarchal profession and I do think there is a still a perception at partner level that juniors should do their time and jump through the hoops that the existing framework dictates

This seems to be my daughters experience. When she got her degree results in, as they recruited her before she had them, she said to the partner in charge of her dept, I got a first, and he responded “little blunt we all have firsts here” with a shrug, and moved the conversation on.

It was simply expected.

To be fair, goodbyestrsnger, your DC are all super bright and have been to Oxford. Have they all got firsts so far?

The DD in question has a place at Nottingham. That’s not quite the same. Although of course it’s good. This might also come down to travelling and whether she will warm enough to live in London and how quickly that will happen. It’s sobering to know there are three times the number of law grads than training contracts each year. That doesn’t factor in those who are already paralegals, and those with other academic degrees. It doesn’t feel easy. It’s all about risk and odds isn’t it?

Bluntness my apologies, I remembered incorrectly. In that case you wrote previously that she had struggles finding a TC. That's fine, same difference, but her experience doesn't mirror that of either my own DC or their many friends who've gone off on the very well trodden path of Law and History students and it's worth saying that to an OP whose DD is being told these things are like gold dust. That's bang on the point of the thread not a derailment.

Xenia in the mid 80s I applied to a single MC firm and had a single interview with three partners which I remember vividly for wholly non law related reasons and they phoned home with an offer before I'd even arrived back (days of landlines only, obviously). They made a big mistake in putting their faith in me but that's another story. So my experience and yours cancel each other's out. And clearly you were far more suited, which is ironic.

Bluntness I'm struggling to think of a single one of my eldest six DCs' uni friends who haven't ended up with a TC at one of these firms, if they applied. I just think your DD had a harder time than most but it's not helpful to insist that that is the general experience.

warm??? Earn...

Also it’s fair to say goodbyestranger’s DC are the most likely to get training contracts. They have expert guidance, the best degrees and a parent who can guide and advise. Their odds are very good for getting what they want.

Bubbles you're making the assumption that they're all super bright because they have a consistent track record at getting into Oxford. That doesn't elevate them each individually to super bright status. They're all at least tolerably bright I suppose but I don't know that I'd say they were all super bright. They're certainly all quite funny and good company (when they're not being quarrelsome) but I don't actually know where they each are on the brightness scale.

That aside - and it's clearly a derail Bubbles! - what about friends and social life? Life shouldn't be too dreary or tunnel visioned at 18yrs old. The idea of commuting to an office where there are virtually no other people of your own age to hang out with is one I'd avoid for myself/ my DC at all costs. Also, I suspect that way of absorbing law is actually incredibly dull, and calculated to end up putting people off, whereas a law degree is incredibly interesting in its exposition of law and all its various aspects.

Cross post Bubbles. I don't think my DC take a blind bit of notice of what I say, but thank you for your (misplaced) vote of confidence :) (I have told them to stop talking to me as though I'm a complete idiot but to very little effect).

The apprenticeship route is not that new, we have some at my current firm who have been on the scheme for several years and are almost finished, my previous firm started offering legal apprenticeships about 4 years ago too.

It works and is a great option for those who don't want to go to uni.

However if she is bright enough to get in at Uni of Nottingham and has the support to go I would strongly suggest she goes to uni and gets applying for vacation schemes and training contracts ASAP. A degree will give her more options and is the traditional route.

If the LPC and training contract are putting her off there are various alternative routes to qualification now and it would be worth her looking into equivalent means or the CILEX graduate route.

Hi everyone just had a chance to read all the posts. Just thought I’d give more details but all your opinions are useful.

1. It’s a large global law firm in London
2. There are 3 other apprentices and would be the fourth cohort
3. DD is on a gap year after having an unhappy experience at uni last year (she stayed for a term). It was a lower ranked local (ish) uni and is worried about going back to uni although she still wants to give it another shot but is unsure about taking the risk in case it goes wrong again (no fault of her own).
4. All of her friends are at uni so she would be the only one at home which is a worry for her

P.S- you all sound like you have very successful DC’s and must be v proud!

All I want is for my DD is to be happy and successful.

Lol bubbles how condescending can you be. Seriously not worth interacting with you, like the last thread, 🤪

Op. It’s maybe putting a different light on it if she’s previously dropped out of uni, if she’s comfortable with the route, and the qualifications and the timing, this may be the best option.

The only thing is is she is quite lonely at the moment and is worried that will continue/get worse when she does the apprenticeship and so will miss the social side of uni. And what would happen if she gets halfway through/4 years through the programme and changes her mind? But is very worried about going further away for uni again after her previous experience.

If there are three other apprentices, she may be able to make friends with them and socialise with them, it depends if they are all in different departments, I’d assume they are ie one in property, one in aviation, one in litigation etc.and how often they are brought together, how much she likes them or they her.

The issue she will have is she will be substantially younger than the rest of the staff, she maybe will be closer in age to the junior paralegals, but they will have completed their degrees as a min and possibly also their lpcs over two years after their degrees,, so a very different level of Maturity and experience.

The fee earners, ie the solicitors, associates and partners clearly much older and likely not willing to socialise past work events,.

Those on a training contract (trainee solicitors ) will also have completed their degrees and done their lpcs, over one or two years, so again a different level of maturity, they also only do six months in any one seat (dept basically ) as they complete their qualifying period over the two years, so wouldn’t be in her dept for long anyway .

So I’d say it’s possible she finds friends, but due to her age, and experience, she may find she doesn’t have much in common with, others.

The other apprentices also could be younger than her, Ie straight out of school.

I would say this would not be the guaranteed way to make friends. To put it into context these guys are working 14 hour days min, the pace is brutal, the atmosphere tense and busy, and as much as she may find personal friends and a social life , she shouldn’t be looking at it for that purpose as there is a significant chance it might not happen.

However nor should she go to uni just for the social circle. She needs to pick based on the best career choice.

She may be lonely if she’s not working currently or at uni. A job may change that when she’s busy,

Sorry to hear about your DDs experience OP. My own DC have had friends who had to try a second uni before settling but it can be the best decision to do that when the first clearly isn't working. What you say about loneliness would be the biggest driver for me, as a parent giving advice and reinforces my initial gut instinct I think, that even for those without a more complicated situation like your DD, the apprenticeship route has the potential to be isolating at exactly the time in life when young people need the company of peers. Good luck to her.

goodbey, I think the mid 80s was totally different and better than I applies (I applied early 80s). I had my 25 interviews before getting a TC in the early 80s, was not kept off after (by which time we had gorgeous 1 year old first child) and then it was boom time - I could walk away from that first firm and I had offers from Slaughter and May (where I went in 1985) and 2 other almost as good firms. So I still think my point about recessions and booms stands and in fact our examples may be illustrate it well.

On the potential apprentice here it sounds like she tried university and it did not go very well but that she might want another go for the social side of it and i think someone said it was Nottingham (where my second daughter went).

It is quite a hard thread as most of us who are lawyers or have children who are went through the LPC etc route so it harder to be objective. I can certainly see the pros and cons here (and we don't ll have "successful " children - my son after his degree was a postman for 3 years and now drives a grocery delivery van - very happily and what is success anyway? However he is certainly not what a lot of people would call successful.

IN a sense the apprenticeship route IS the traditional route - it is the one my great uncle followed in the 1890s - he read for his London LLB externally whilst articled for what I presume wsa 5 years and then practised in Leeds as a solicitor. I am not sure if he had to pay to be taken on as an article clerk as was very common as they are such a burden when they start as they know nothing and just take up time and space and money but that was certainly the system in those days for many.

Condecending? No. I’m full of admiration for any DC who can get excellent results from one of the best universities in the world. Goodbyestrangers DC do this and it’s amazing (as far as I’m concerned) as is getting multiple offers for your career choices afterwards.

It is hard to give advice to DC when you don’t know much about law. Let alone careers in it when you have no expertise or experience yourself. It’s a worry!

Oxbridge still provides many trainees. Was that a condescending comment? Of course other universities are represented but not in the same numbers. That’s still a fact. And could be a reason to accept the apprenticeship.

As it’s a big global firm and the first uni didn’t work out, it might be worth looking at where she really feels she will be happy as opposed to the degree. That’s worth so much. If her thoughts are leaning more towards working, then she should. She should be clear about how this route might vary from other trainees with degrees regarding eventual outcomes but does it matter?

I don’t think I have said anything that I wouldn’t be thinking about if it was my DC taking this decision. OP - if I have offended you, I apologise.