Oxbridge 2020 (8th thread)

[DadDadDad]

A thread to continue discussing entry to Oxbridge in October 2020 (less than nine months away ). All welcome, although this obviously will be of most interest to those with DS or DD holding an offer, and wanting to find a bit of support.

All too soon, 13 August will come over the horizon. Until then, ask questions... share experiences... discuss news and stats... write a poem... (we did briefly have some poetry on a previous thread).

With huge thanks to @HugoSpritz and predecessors for previous threads.

That article suggests mayhem for admissions tutors and lecturers/tutors and the Oxbridge brand itself if theres question marks over whether candidates are achieving a place on merit or because some social factors are in play. However, it’s too early to say. Parents on here are asking questions. That’s as it should be. We need to see the evidence in the Autumn. This could all be a storm in a teacup and it could be that marginal candidates are missing out in which case there’s not much going on at all.

Yes, shout. What else can anyone do? Might be nothing to shout about though.

It's bound to be at the margins Elay321. Have you read the Guardian article linked to by hobbema?

The Telegraph article merely suggests that two tutors interviewed by the paper are disaffected with the streamlining of the policy and who knows what internal politics might be at play, leaving aside Politics with a big P.

I don't know enough about all the ins and outs, but one thing I thought was interesting in the article was:

When Ben was in lower sixth we attended an Oxbridge evening to learn about the application process (so different to other universities), led by a visiting professor from the University of Cambridge.

Our (outstanding grammar) state school had an Oxbridge evening (hour), but we certainly didn't have a visiting professor!

Same AnotherNightWatering. We have a Higher Ed evening for Y12 with an admissions tutor from the local university and another admissions person (sometimes an outreach officer rather than an academic) from Oxford or Cambridge, not usually both in the same year.

Does the contextual “penalty” (if it exists) apply to students on 100% bursaries at an indie? If it does why would anyone send their super bright to say, Winchester? Why would anyone take a bursary now? I know Oxbridge isn’t the be all but in reality it would be a big turn off surely?
Most parents at DS indie secretly hoping for Oxbridge. Ambition runs through their veins. They will stop forking out ££ in a blink of an eye if they see a horizon of disappointment.

My ds started off very relaxed about it, but the further on in the process he went the more he wanted a place. I distinctly remember him saying he would be OK if he didn't get an offer as long as he had the chance to interview. He came back after the interview saying he would be gutted if he didn't get an offer.

@HuaShan a similar thing happened to DS. The further he gets in the process, the more he wants to go there and study that course.

goodbyestranger Yes, we just had a couple of teachers, no external speakers. And this is from a good state school, that regularly gets pupils in to Oxbridge. For those at an average or poor school, with little parental encouragement or understanding, surely some allowance must be made.

My DH hadn't been to university, and I was incredulous that he had no idea there were differences between universities. He thought that a maths degree, say, was the same wherever you went!

goodbye I didn't suggest anything criminal had taken place. A lack of transparency perhaps.

Gosh never realised I was secretly hoping for Oxbridge all along. Here was me thinking I just wanted them to be happy...as for ambition running through my veins, blimey. I just wanted my kids to be properly taught. We live in a part of country where state schools find it really hard to recruits teachers esp for sciences and languages. If we could have lived somewhere a bit edgier and more urban we would not be beggaring our old age believe me! Don’t suppose Oxford contextualisation is interested in that though.

I'm being deliberately vague to avoid self-identifying, but all the facts are correct.

My DCs go/went to a good 11-18 comprehensive with no separate sixth form or UCAS coordinator. The standard head of house for the entire school years deal with UCAS applications, so there is no particular expertise. On average there is one Oxbridge offer every year or two. We also have a local university (not RG) admissions officer come and give a talk. No help beside that.

My DC has a friend at school (Z) who is reasonably academic (second set material) and Z wasn't quite reaching their potential at the state comp, according to their parents. Z was then sent to a good indie before their GCSEs having been put back a year as Z's birthday was on the cusp of the cut off.

The school has a good record of exam success. Z performed very well from henceforth achieving top grades across the board. Z duly applied to Oxbridge with the help of a school Oxbridge co ordinator, a talk from a retired Oxbridge professor and also weekly coaching sessions for Oxbridge applications.

Z was interviewed at Oxbridge for a humanities subject and did not achieve an offer, unfortunately. Z has an unconditional offer from another very good university, so all is not lost.

Compare this with my DC who stayed on at the comp, albeit in top set, also achieved top grades and was successful in an offer and is currently studying the exact same subject at Oxbridge.

Perhaps one could consider Z's parents tried to buy an educational advantage and it is just and fair that the Oxbridge dream ended as Z was not achieving at a very high academic level in the comp. Thoughts?

Ok, so if Oxford gives more leeway to state pupils, very rich people will choose the local comp instead of Winchester?

Interestingly, loads of very expensive private schools get very few people into Oxbridge, even under the old regime. So if that's why you're sending your child to private school it's a high risk strategy.

If it does why would anyone send their super bright to say, Winchester?

For an excellent secondary education better than what they'd be likely to get in the state sector, presumably.

* ....question marks over whether candidates are achieving a place on merit or because some social factors are in play.*

Or maybe, more candidates can achieve a place on merit because those social factors are being recognised? Oxbridge aren't, afaik, reducing their offers. If you want to get on a Cambridge STEM course, you still need those A stars, even if you've been in sets of 20-30 rather than half a dozen.

The system is evolving, and doubtless its currently rather too blunt. But there's still 30% of offers being made to independently educated applicants this year, and judging from previous years stats a higher proportion of these v state will achieve the required grades.

Bolding fail on quoted third para, sorry.

Thats a really interesting post Aurea. How to tell though that Z wasnt maybe a late academic flowerer ? There was no control Z at your DC school to compare.Thats the trouble isnt it? We can all only do what we think is best at the time and I doubt we have totally objective insight into the relative intelligence of our own DC compared to other peoples.
Re your comment about “no help beyond that” and goodbye with University admission tutors coming to your schools, we had precisely none of that at my DC private school. I think some people’s idea of “no help “ is somewhat disingenuous tbh.

Bursaries are available for the very few. Even knowing about private schools and when to apply and when the exams are, plus pay for the exam are part of a social cachet that the majority don't have. There can be subtle or not so subtle class games played out throughout education. It really does smell of sour grapes from indies who coasted/boasted about their past achievements. It's utterly fair to consider where a candidate came from. It was in part seen as a reason why earlier attempts at increasing state applicants to Oxbridge failed. The ones who had similar experiences to interviewees were seen as a better 'fit', so it's simply attempting to adjust in the other direction. Another consideration may be that privately educated are more likely to be able to apply post-results?
Other things that indies may have is less stressed teachers, working in more congenial atmospheres and paid to be there for longer per day rather than perhaps being as in some V1th form colleges part-time and very dependent on how many students they have for the hours they are paid.

we had precisely none of that at my DC private school
Not all private schools are equal, though. Many never get DC into Oxbridge. Just as there are a range of state schools, there are a range of private schools. There's probably quite a lot of overlap with the "bottom" private schools and the "top" state schools in this respect, which makes it difficult to work out what's fair.

@littleslummygirl; re teachers, agree. I dont think the teaching for our DC has been stellar, some good, some shockers, BUT we never have supply teachers, all are up for the supracurricular stuff . There’s a bit of crowd control but I’m sure its tiddlywinks compared to stuff I know other posters’ DC have to deal with.

It is a sterile debate to compare ‘state’ and ‘indie’. These categories of themselves are pretty meaningless. There are some state sixth forms that are real academic powerhouses and actually pretty academically selective, and some deeply average independents. This is the issue I have with banding schools. It is too blunt a tool. Does it really expand access to take huge numbers from Hills Road, Peter Symonds et al? Go to state schools in the North East and Wales if you really want to level things, expand the foundation year and start making offers that include Bs.

It can't access that article in full, but the intro para must have been written with all awareness of irony turned off, mustn't it?

The Universities of Oxford and Cambridge have pledged to increase their intake of students from poor backgrounds. But is a system that penalises children based on their class really fair, wonders one mother.

Yes, it's bloody unfair that many kids are penalised based on 'class' from birth throughout their education relative to others, and unis trying to mitigate that for a few is overdue.

There is general consensus

Oops
That access needs to be improved but banding schools just seems wrong & lazy.

Goodness @DadDadDad and you thought the thread might go quiet!

So as an anecdote, my DS (state comprehensive) has an offer from Cambridge. He had no talk from any university admissions person, no support from school with personal statement writing, and has no STEP preparation at school. He has had many different teachers throughout GCSE and A level and lots of cover teaching. He self-taught two GCSEs and is self-teaching STEP. We do not have a high income and after bills our budget doesn't allow for much so he has had a paid job every Saturday and Sunday since he turned 16 to fund his social life and learning to drive. He uses the library and free online resources for his books, which can be frustrating for him if they don't have what he needs/wants, especially for his humanities subjects. He has never had any paid-for tutoring or extra help educationally. He will be the first in our family to go to university if he goes, and other than us looking online with him, he had no help in selecting five universities or doing applications.

He is not, in my opinion, disadvantaged. He comes from a home bursting with love and support. He has also not, in my opinion, been shown any undue favour by Cambridge who pooled him and require him to get two A stars, another A and grades 1 in STEP papers 2 and 3.

I have to believe that every child who gets into Oxbridge this year will do so on merit and, as those who have been on this thread since the start know I have said all along, I think that there is a huge dollop of luck involved and that loads of deserving candidates will miss out. Quite possibly still including my son.

I don't think it's right to moan about any university trying to make their courses available to the widest possible number of deserving applicants. Life will never be fair but to me it seems good that everyone gets a chance no matter their background.