Oxbridge Aspirants: Sep 2021

[funkysatsuma]

Not sure if it's too early to start this thread in Nov 2019 :)

DS would like Cambridge Economics as the first choice. Would like to know where can we get some help to prepare for the ECAA test - appreciate any pointers/links. Thanks in advance

Errrr.... I didn't mention anything whatsoever about state or indie. I mentioned first year students. Nor did I mention anything about moderation.

Back in the 80s we had exams at the end of the first term at my uni (Durham). It wasn't such a terrible idea back then.

If I were admissions at Oxford or Cambridge next year I would ask 2020 “exam” sitters to find out and tell them their rank. Then they can see whether the Astar was “lucky” or a fair reflection of the kids rank at their school, whichever sort of school it was. I would expect them to give a bit more of a check to any pupil who went to a school where the cohort of A level takers was under 5, cos, you know, a bit more likely the A star was not a true reflection of ability..

That’s how I would try and make it fairer for the 2021 exam sitters...

MidLifeCrisis007 you didn't mention state/ indie and you didn't mention moderation but these things require thinking about, or a terrible idea becomes that much worse.

So, what exactly are you proposing? My Y13 was awarded 3A on results day, her CAGs were also 3A, she attended a state school which was badly marked down in the moderation process. Are you seriously suggesting that she (and students in a similar position) be examined at the end of the first term? Why? What would be the justification? Clearly you haven't thought this through.

I read Law at Durham in the 80s and had no exams until the end of the first year. What subject did you read MidLifeCrisis007? I don't recall anyone having exams. Were any students sent down as a result of poor performance in these exams? (I doubt it!).

I was a NatSci student. One of the 3 options I started with was geology and we were examined on hundreds of fossils after a term. If I'd carried on trying to learn them until now, I'd never have been able to commit them to memory. It prompted a quick swap from geology to anthropology as my 3rd option in the 2nd term.... not necessarily because I wanted to do anthropology either... but IIRC it was the only option that worked timetable wise!!! I remember a fair few students getting culled at the end of the first year - but none at the end of the first term.

The reason I raised it is that Cambridge, and to a lesser extent Oxford, have a massive overcapacity issue that will reduce the places available for future cohorts. That is just as unfair as the moderation process your DD will have suffered that might have cost her her place.

Exams after a term will give the under performers a chance to reapply elsewhere and clarity to Oxford and Cambridge on the number of places available for the 2021 applicants for when they award offers in January.

I don't write the rules.... I'm simply saying, that is a possible solution.

So you’d subject some students, who havent studied since March, to an exam no-one would have had time to set or calibrate, after what 6-7 weeks of their degree? And you’d get dons , who on top of their normal commitments and who incidentally are interviewing your DC to mark them in December and cull the unfortunates over Christmas in time for your DC to get an offer in January. Genius.

The best thing is to quickly found St Marquee’s College on a distant field with no face-to-face teaching and a line of portaloos. college dinners by Deliveroo. That would get a load of them to drop out...

A level takers was under 5, cos, you know, a bit more likely the A star was not a true reflection of ability

So, that would take out a lot of Indie school pupils whose school results have never been below an A, because they are selective...... but just because they are in a small class they are penalised. That's a great idea too...... .

I do get a bit grumpy when posters, and not here necessarily, but all over, decide that kids that go to Independent schools aren't human beings, or children, or young people, who are equally effected by life chances. Yes, they have had a blessed life, yes, they have excellent teaching, but they are also deserving of their grades. They don't just get "given" them either, they are earned.

Hear hear Baaah , sentiments I have voiced repeatedly on Oxbridge 20 threads. Very very many things we previously assumed were givens have been up-ended by this pandemic. Maybe there will be fewer places at Oxbridge for current y12 but belittling and pulling down current y13 who might “steal” a place seems spiteful and unnecessary.

I agree that it is daft to say that somehow private school pupils are “stupider” than state school pupils. And I have no axe to grind - comp all the way here!

However..... I can’t help feeling somewhat aggrieved about some of the year 13s who have had a very lucky break. That’s why it makes me cross when I’ve seen some on the student room whining about being given another college or not being allowed to defer.

That really is a bit rich isnt it when colleges are doing their level best about injustices they didnt create either? DD would happily have camped in St Marquee’s College tents if that’s what had been offered.

It may also be, of course, that there are no exams next year either - in which case unis may have to accept everyone, all over again!

I do think the govt need to do some planning now, rather than the usual style of wittering on about everything being superb and “robust” and then having to react to public outrage as a result the of their utter incompetence.

If schools have to close again in the coming year, it will be straight back to square one and the same old issues of some schools providing next to nothing while others are able to switch seamlessly into online provision.

I’d like to think they will have some foresight as to the impact of this year’s overinflated grades on the availability of uni places for next year, but I very much doubt it. I can see exactly the same thing happening next year and they will have learned nothing from the mistakes of this year. Or there will be a different type of outrage if all students are expected to sit the same exams, even though some have had very reduced teaching. But none of this will dawn on the govt until about a week before the exams.

We should invite GW to MN. Might help him out..,,

@Baaaahhhhh

A level takers was under 5, cos, you know, a bit more likely the A star was not a true reflection of ability

So, that would take out a lot of Indie school pupils whose school results have never been below an A, because they are selective...... but just because they are in a small class they are penalised. That's a great idea too...... .

I do get a bit grumpy when posters, and not here necessarily, but all over, decide that kids that go to Independent schools aren't human beings, or children, or young people, who are equally effected by life chances. Yes, they have had a blessed life, yes, they have excellent teaching, but they are also deserving of their grades. They don't just get "given" them either, they are earned.

I think it’s fair comment to say if you are in a class of under 5 it might be a bit more likely (than in a larger class) that any A star is lucky. It’s not disputed that lots of schools with classes under 5 struck lucky with the teacher grades being awarded. I don’t think that’s spiteful, just truthful. My daughter goes to a private school where they have largely struck lucky just like this. Their results are the same as last year but once the larger classes also get their CAGs they will be much much better.. so I have no particular axe to grind!

I agree that I can see the same thing happening. Surely someone can come up with an idea to ensure that this year 13 are seen as a discrete group and not a precedent.

I think that there will have to be a move now to application post A Level - even if it’s a mad few-week rush - as it will avoid the need to over-offer and potentially be forced to take hundreds more applicants.

UCAS is already open, though! Quick - how can we stop this train heading down the same disastrous track?!

@HuaShan

Here you go: Oxford - expected intake 3267 from 3600 offers, now admitting 3400 this year. Others may get deferred offers for 2021 but of course there may be a proportion whose CAG don't meet their offer.

Sadly, I think that Oxford number is too low - they made 3,900 offers according to their press release.

Oh, and hello - I have a DS planning to apply to Oxford for history, although I have to admit that I am not sure it is a great use of one of his slots given the potential issues with getting any offer for any circa top 10 institution. I think remember the Durham history open day team saying that that they make around 950 offers to fill their circa 250 history places, which is worrying.

And for avoidance of doubt, I am so glad that things have worked out well for the majority of the 2021 thread - like many, I imagine, I have been lurking away like mad through their process 

We’re fucked in 2021. 2020 applicants will get deferments. And 2021 cohort have missed lots of teaching and Ofqual tinkering of the exam format have been inconsequential. Can’t help but feel that CAGs are useless. In 2021 those teZchers who overestimated will be found out

Surely they will have to offer the same number of places for the next cohort, but split over 2 years again until the numbers are right again? I am so cross on behalf of the new year 13s who have already got a tough year ahead.

Yes, it’s not just Oxbridge. Durham can be just as competitive. At least Cambridge and Oxford publish their admissions statistics. And god only knows what the situation is somewhere like LSE or Imperial.

I think I’m just going to wait until all the dust has settled from this debacle and then ring around for DS and just ask colleges / universities if they have anything approximating to the normal number of spaces available for his subject because if not, there’s no point him wasting an UCAS option.

It could also affect college choice within Cambridge or Oxford. For instance, DS was planning to apply to a college that only takes 2 for his subject. Those two places might well have already gone as of yesterday!

Even in a college with a large intake for his subject, you might still only be looking at 6 or 7 students per year. You could apply to a college and be instantly pooled elsewhere before you were even invited for interview (or not).

It would be very helpful if Cambridge (and other unis) release a statement about availability of places before the UCAS forms are due in. DS’ school want the forms completed at the end of Sept.

Hear hear

Hello. Can I join please? DS2 looking at Cambridge for MML next year. I’ve spent much of time enraged over the past few days, almost obsessively consuming information and opinion on this year’s A level debacle. I think it’s the injustice from so many angles that’s got to me. Anyhow, hello 😊

I didn't even bother to mention the tutors interviewing immediately after the end of term hobbema, because the idea of exams was too flawed for any further justification. I thought it though!

That is just as unfair as the moderation process your DD will have suffered that might have cost her her place.
MidLifeCrisis my point was that moderation didn't alter the CAGs in DD's case, and that therefore, as someone exceeding her offer by three grades according to the moderated grades, are you seriously expecting offer holders in that position to take exams at the end of first term as well? It's a bonkers idea.

My other point, about examining indie offer holders since indies have done far better under moderation than other types of school, was tongue in cheek, but has at least an element of reason behind it!

@Tenpastseven

Hello. Can I join please? DS2 looking at Cambridge for MML next year. I’ve spent much of time enraged over the past few days, almost obsessively consuming information and opinion on this year’s A level debacle. I think it’s the injustice from so many angles that’s got to me. Anyhow, hello 😊

Hi Tenpastseven, dd is off to do MML next month at Cambridge so I'll drop any pearls of wisdom your way .

Deferrals, whilst possibly the only fair outcome for this year’s leavers, are clearly storing up injustice for next year’s (and so on with subsequent years). Here’s my thought. Universities take foreign (current non eu) students partly because they pay much higher fees and domestic tuition fees don’t actually reflect the cost of the place (particularly Oxbridge). I’ve been in a meeting about funding \ access at an Oxbridge College where they’ve said - we could fill our places with foreign students many times over and solve our financial issues but it would be the wrong thing to do. But there is clearly financial pressure to take a certain number. What about this - I think next year there needs to be a reduction in the number of foreign students and an increase in the number of domestic students to give the 2021 cohort the same odds of a place as normal. (So deferred places are effectively taken from the foreign numbers). The funding shortfall should be met by central government. Not sure whether the change in EU status will otherwise help or exacerbate the problem if EU applicants become full payers too? Also no idea whether some courses lend themselves to this idea more than others - maybe some courses don’t attract many foreign students - I don’t know. It’s probably not perfect but it could be one way to protect the chances of 2021 students?

Honestly, we just need transparency from Cambridge et al
In a few weeks, when the dust is settling and they know exactly who is deferring, they need to publish numbers of those deferring and numbers of places available per course. So our DC know exactly what is available ( and unavailable).
I never really thought a problem for this year would so badly potentially affect next year ( how shortsighted of me).