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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

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Medicine 2021

999 replies

Millylovespuddles · 28/11/2019 19:46

Hi all
It looks like there’s no medicine 2021 entry thread yet, so it might be an idea to get the ball rolling.
My DD is getting stuck into her A level course, doing well so far, but I’m guessing we parents could do with some mutual support and advice from parents who’ve been here before.

OP posts:
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9
GANFYD · 01/03/2020 21:22

@goodbyestranger

Oxford is fairly competitive for Medicine in fact mumsneedwine, in terms of both numbers and the qualifications of those applying, which might surprise you. Cambridge too

At 10 applicants per place, Oxford is fairly average in terms of competition. UCLan was top last year with 32 applicants per place, then Bristol, Aberdeen, ARU, Nottingham. Cambridge actually had the second lowest application to place ratio, at 5, above only Imperial.

GANFYD · 01/03/2020 21:24

@mumsneedwine
I'm very happy to say that my experience of medical school applications is as a mum of a 2nd year.

That is how many of us started, as there is no driver like supporting your child to achieve what they want Smile

mumsneedwine · 01/03/2020 21:29

It is very satisfying. My DD came into my school and did a talk to the year 12s and gave them so much confidence to apply. I am so incredibly proud of what she has achieved.

GANFYD · 01/03/2020 21:47

I actually keep my interests fairly quiet in real life, due to issues around professional roles (I do not want to do it in a formal capacity). I did offer to go and speak to any interested students at my DC's school but was told "Thank you, but it is rather complicated....."
OK, mate, you crack on with your rubbish advice! I speak to friends' children and friend's of my children and other than that, spend too much time on TSR!

goodbyestranger · 01/03/2020 22:29

GANFYD it's a somewhat rookie error to define competition by numbers alone!

goodbyestranger · 01/03/2020 22:36

Reading backwards here GANFYD but I'm struggling a bit with the tortuousness of some of your posts.

Not much has changed with Oxford med school admissions since DS applied, in fact.

If you read the thread properly, you won't have missed anything, presumably.

goodbyestranger · 01/03/2020 22:40

And lastly - at least for now - I'll grant you that med school admissions change over the years but the simple idea of being straightforward, not treating admissions tutors as twerps and showing rather than telling in laborious detail I think probably holds good. It's certainly not done my own DC any harm, at any rate.

GANFYD · 01/03/2020 22:58

@goodbyestranger
GANFYD it's a somewhat rookie error to define competition by numbers alone!

How would you define it, then? Competition is surely about the number of people you are competing against?

GANFYD · 01/03/2020 23:09

@goodbyestranger
And lastly - at least for now - I'll grant you that med school admissions change over the years but the simple idea of being straightforward, not treating admissions tutors as twerps and showing rather than telling in laborious detail I think probably holds good. It's certainly not done my own DC any harm, at any rate.

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but I prefer to listen to those with relevant, up to date experience in med school admissions, rather than somebody who has experience of 1 person 9 years ago. I am pretty sure there are at least 3 people currently involved in med school admissions on this thread and you have told all of them they are wrong with their comments. It is down to those reading posts to attribute relevancy and usefulness as they see fit

goodbyestranger · 01/03/2020 23:16

Competition is very obviously about the quality of those you're competing against as well as the volume.

I'm not sure which three admissions tutors I've said are talking twaddle? Have I?

I haven't said what my experience is, so perhaps don't jump to conclusions. You haven't said what yours is but if you're on TSR a lot then I assume you're either on there an a med school admissions tutor (in which case I find the reaction of your DSs' school a little curt), or a med school student yourself. I can't think of much else which would warrant being on TSR a lot, tbf. So, fair play!

goodbyestranger · 01/03/2020 23:17

Please excuse typos - blanket apology for historical and future typos :)

GANFYD · 01/03/2020 23:18

@goodbyestranger
It's certainly not done my own DC any harm, at any rate.

And I thought we had already decided that just because something is seen or happens one way for one person, that does not mean it can be extrapolated to all?

goodbyestranger · 01/03/2020 23:23

Eight DC is seven more than one GANFYD. It's a reasonable sample set but clearly their experience isn't universally applicable, just an indication that their shared approach very probably isn't wrong.

GANFYD · 01/03/2020 23:56

@goodbystranger

Competition is very obviously about the quality of those you're competing against as well as the volume

Can you post a link to any evidence you have that the quality of those not applying to Oxbridge is lower than those who do and how that affects likelihood of obtaining a place?

I'm not sure which three admissions tutors I've said are talking twaddle? Have I?

1 AT, 2 people directly involved with med admissions. You have told everybody they are talking twaddle unless they specifically agree with your opinion.

I haven't said what my experience is, so perhaps don't jump to conclusions. You haven't said what yours is but if you're on TSR a lot then I assume you're either on there an a med school admissions tutor (in which case I find the reaction of your DSs' school a little curt), or a med school student yourself. I can't think of much else which would warrant being on TSR a lot, tbf. So, fair play!

Hence why I asked your experience, it helps those reading to judge the validity and usefulness of your comments, as you are particularly insistent that your opinion is correct. As I say, I do not give advice using my real life identity. My DC's school are an odd bunch, but only 1 year left, so we can put up with that! I work in medicine and am involved in med school admissions and have been giving med students advice on TSR for many years - some on this thread may have seen me there. Hi Smile
So please do share your qualifications to be giving advice and denouncing advice given by others?
I have been a MN medicine thread stalker for years (since me and my buddy on TSR were name-checked as helpful sources of admission advice) and always been impressed at the helpful, informative, supportive posts on the threads. This is the first year I have felt the need to comment due to the level of unhelpful and inaccurate advice being given

goodbyestranger · 02/03/2020 07:52

GANFYD I may or may not be as well informed as you on a number of scores relating to higher ed but I've no intention of succumbing to bossy requests for information about myself!

If you seriously believe that all those applying to med school across the board are as well qualified as Oxbridge applicants in terms of academic ability (the first filter), then I don't think any so-called link on the planet will assist!

I don't use TSR since it's for students and my view is that parents should keep off it and leave it to those for whom it was intended.

GANFYD · 02/03/2020 11:32

@goodbyestranger
Reading backwards here GANFYD but I'm struggling a bit with the tortuousness of some of your posts.

If you need anything I have said explaining in simpler terms, please let me know. I do have a tendency to assume a level of reading comprehension, so sorry if you are struggling

goodbyestranger · 02/03/2020 11:52

GANFYD you do seem to have marched on here simply to announce your credentials as self-styled expert from another site supposed to be for students and to be rude. This board is for parents to share experience of their own DCs journey through the med schools admissions process. Which is exactly what I'm doing. You can't actually show that my advice about not treating tutors as thick is wrong, since it seems to meet with a marked degree of success. If you believe that every last thing needs to be spelled out, well - just another opinion. Which is fine. I'm completely cool with that and think it would be better for everyone here if you stopped getting wrapped around the axle about a different approach than your own. It would be very good to if you could be a little more polite and a tad less bossy. Cheers.

The problem lies with the lack of clarity in your writing, which is frankly poor, not in my comprehension skills.

I do slightly worry about the attributes of someone who holds themselves out as directly involved in med school admissions and yet who holds such spiteful views about a particular group (senior prefects). It doesn't send out a good vibe. When one sifts CVs and interviews one needs to lighten up on pre-conceived prejudice to get the right outcome, in my experience.

goodbyestranger · 02/03/2020 11:53

Please refer to typo apology above.

GANFYD · 02/03/2020 11:58

@goodbyestranger
I may or may not be as well informed as you on a number of scores relating to higher ed but I've no intention of succumbing to bossy requests for information about myself!

Not even enough of a bio for people to make informed decisions about the likely accuracy of the info you are pushing in such a forthright manner? That is disappointing. given that you have been happy to discuss bio details of your Oxford-qualified, London F2 medic son and also to discuss others' professional roles on here.
I guess people must draw their own inferences from your reticence

If you seriously believe that all those applying to med school across the board are as well qualified as Oxbridge applicants in terms of academic ability (the first filter), then I don't think any so-called link on the planet will assist!

So do we not DO evidence on MN, then? Are people expected to rely on conjecture, anecdotes, personal opinion and hearsay? Or that (s)he who shouts loudest and denounces others most vigorously must be correct? (or are men not allowed on MN as it is for mums?)
Oxbridge do not have the highest average entry tariff for medicine, so how are you judging "well-qualified"?
This year, Cambridge received 1474 applications for 265 places (6:1); Oxford received 1766 applications for 170 (approx 10:1) and KMMS received over 1500 applicants for 100 places (over 15:1). Last year, UCLan had 480 applicants for 15 places (32:1).
How do you wish to judge competitiveness and what are you basing that on?

I don't use TSR since it's for students and my view is that parents should keep off it and leave it to those for whom it was intended.

Then you know as little about TSR as you do about med school admissions. Long may you hold that view! It is used BY students, but is full of lovely, educated, informed, experienced and non-judgemental people who give advice about applications. This includes some Oxbridge ATs - or should they not be on there, too, and "leave it to the students"?
I shall return to the site that values evidence-based, researched and informed opinion but if anybody would like med admissions advice, give me a shout Smile

GANFYD · 02/03/2020 12:20

@goodbyestranger

I came on here as reading the inaccurate, unhelpful and insulting posts made by yourself made me feel I owed it to people who just want good advice about supporting their children through a med school application cycle to point out that what was being said was, at best, unhelpful, as you had already shouted down other people who tried to explain this.

This board is for parents to share experience of their own DCs journey through the med schools admissions process. Which is exactly what I'm doing.
And then telling other people that any opinion different to yours they are wrong......

If you believe that every last thing needs to be spelled out, well - just another opinion. Which is fine
But I base my opinion on guidance given by the Medical School Council and that issued by many med schools themselves (including Oxford www.medsci.ox.ac.uk/study/medicine/pre-clinical/applying/anatomy-of-ps). You say "it worked for Little Jimmy, so it must be OK".
As I say, people must judge for themselves which is more credible

It would be very good to if you could be a little more polite and a tad less bossy. Cheers

Merely replying in the same tone and framework as your posts Smile

The problem lies with the lack of clarity in your writing, which is frankly poor, not in my comprehension skills

Nobody else seems to be struggling? Is a little more reflection and self-awareness needed here?

I do slightly worry about the attributes of someone who holds themselves out as directly involved in med school admissions and yet who holds such spiteful views about a particular group (senior prefects). It doesn't send out a good vibe. When one sifts CVs and interviews one needs to lighten up on pre-conceived prejudice to get the right outcome, in my experience.

Well you have no need to worry, as if your comprehension skills could manage to understood what I said, it was that this is the view most children at the school my DCs attend have and it is therefore possible for people to see things in a different way to you. I at no point mentioned that it was my view, just that simply stating you were HB/G was not, of itself, an impressive achievement and should be clarified by roles, skills, characteristics etc which is what med schools who use PS are wanting you to demonstrate.

But this is tedious and boring, as you clearly lack ANY degree of self-awareness, so I shall leave you to it, with the caveat to others that I have yet to see anything useful in your posts about how to obtain a plcae at med school. Others must view your posts as they see fit

GANFYD · 02/03/2020 12:25

#behappy

Medicine 2021
mimtza · 02/03/2020 13:12

@GANYFD while you are on here - what do you think about what is perhaps the opposite extreme - ie personal statements that might touch on more personal, emotive, aspects. My DS will have a week of volunteering at a hospital, St Johns Ambulance cadets, and being a big brother to children with life limiting conditions or their siblings. But, the reason why he is involved in the charity that provides big brothers and sisters to families with childen with life limiting conditions is because he himself had a number of such volunteer as a child, due to his brother, and is a registered Young Carer, and while his brother has reached adulthood and is no longer living at home, DS has practical experience with hoists, pumps, mickey buttons, wheelchairs, logrolling, nappy changing of teenagers, young adults, epilepsy and has a fair bit of specific knowledge about random genetic mutations, severe complex needs and life limiting conditions. He has a fair bit of personal experience observing in various hospitals, due to his brother. The danger is that all of this can easily overwhelm a personal statement - or he can talk about things like the St Johns Ambulance and the various first aid courses he took which he got into by going on a waiting list and has nothing really to do with his brother (although most likely the motivation comes from there). So I guess I am trying to get a feel for how "matter a fact" you would advise in what is not exactly a matter of fact situation by definition. DS says that he thinks that "loads" of people applying for medicine will have experiences like his. My inclination is not really, but what do I know. I would assume that there is some sense at talking at length about the precise genetic condition that his brother has, and demonstrating an understanding of that, but might a PS with this content come across as too intense?

Needmoresleep · 02/03/2020 13:29

@GANFYD

I have valued your contributions and I hope that they, and the thread divert, have been useful for those thinking of applying.

I hope they have picked up the critical, and increasing, importance of a good UKCAT score. I continue to think that this is a mistake. I dont disagree with some Med schools using it to help sift applications, and wouldn't disagree if told that a high UKCAT score correlates better with subsequent med school performance than chemistry A level grades.

However correlation is not 100%, indeed the only true correlation is with an ability to take timed aptitude tests. There seemed to be real advantage in different medical schools using different criteria, thereby picking up different students. And allowing students to apply to medical schools that provided the best fit.

There are several accepted reasons why some perfectly capable applicants may perform less well on aptitude tests. Dyslexia, Welsh speaking, etc. And extra time does not compensate on what is already a long test. Not just that. So much rides on performance on the day. Test centre conditions vary and can be hot at noisy (one tip - take ear plugs!) A recent poster recently told of her daughter unexpectedly bombing the SJT section which meant she had to start again on her choices.

But there is something else. UKCAT scores are improved by practice. Does the medical profession really want to encourage prospective medical students to divert disproportionate energy to such practice when there is so much more they could be doing with their time, things that will help develop softer skills. (Just look at 11+ behaviours in SW London where coaching for Tiffin can start at 7.) DD was a prefect, and gained a lot from that. (Chosen by staff!) She took part in sports competitions across the country and abroad from quite an early age. She had time to take additional A levels which will directly relevant to her proposed intercalation, and hopefully to her future career.

But, sadly, might have been better advised to go all out on UKCAT practice.

Medicine offers a wonderful variety of careers, but surely this means that medical schools should be accessible to qualified applicants with a good diversity of skills and experience, and that simply filtering by an ability to take timed tests is restrictive, and in some circumstances, even discriminatory.

(On the relative merits of different medical schools, some of DDs friends are in Swindon, which is shared with Oxford. It is clear they have had very different pre-clinical training. I understand both groups would argue that theirs was better!)

goodbyestranger · 02/03/2020 14:24

GANFYD I think you're getting far, far too exercised about any contribution I may make. Your responses are massively disproportionate! The sheer length! You may well disagree with others but please do allow those who also have experience to chip in on occasion. I'd like to hear voices other than your own and I may not be alone.

I know very well that TSR has some useful official contributors such as Brasenose Admissions on the Oxbridge threads. I also know that there are some very intrusive adults on there who dominate threads and appear to let TSR dominate their lives. My DC have dipped in and out in the past and have told me how it operates but on the whole they steer/ed clear.

I

GANFYD · 02/03/2020 14:34

@mimtza

I would always say the PS is about demonstrating you have the skills and characteristics that are considered desirable in an applicant. These are listed in Outcomes for Graduates
www.gmc-uk.org/education/standards-guidance-and-curricula/standards-and-outcomes/outcomes-for-graduates
as well as numerous other places (this one is quite well set out) www.medschools.ac.uk/media/2542/statement-on-core-values-to-study-medicine.pdf
I would therefore say that what a PS should do is show HOW an applicant demonstrates these qualities. So it is fine to mention your son's experiences, but you need to use it to show he has seen and/or learned communication skills, empathy, compassion, MDT working, etc etc. Stating that he has a disabled brother will gain him zero marks, saying that his experiences with his disabled brother showed him how Drs work as part of a team, how important communication skills are, the difference that an empathic Dr can make over one without that trait, the hard work, the emotional investment, the hours, how it helped him with dealing with setbacks, encouraged resilience, showed him the value of looking after yourself in order to best support someone else.....etc etc
Hopefully you get the drift. I cannot tell anyone what should go in their PS, as it is about what that person has seen, done, experienced, learned and how that shapes their decision to study medicine and shows they have the necessary characteristics for the job.
What you have described seems to give the chance for your son to demonstrate many of these.
It maybe should not be, but many PSs are marked on things like motivation to study medicine, awareness of the nature of the course, balanced approach to life, evidence of commitment to learning, empathy, caring, responsibilites and they are literally a tick box - they are either demonstrated, or they are not, so any particular experience is only worth what it demonstrates.
A good tip is to check med school websites carefully, as they usually give some idea of the skills/experieinces etc a med school is looking for and make sure the PS demonstrates these (most are fairly generic and follow the examples given above).
Hope that helps?
Please let me know if you are having trouble following what I am saying and I will try to re-phrase!