Medicine 2021

[Millylovespuddles]

Hi all
It looks like there’s no medicine 2021 entry thread yet, so it might be an idea to get the ball rolling.
My DD is getting stuck into her A level course, doing well so far, but I’m guessing we parents could do with some mutual support and advice from parents who’ve been here before.

I am not sure UKCAT provides a level playing field. Some, perhaps not your daughter, are able to afford expensive courses and online materials such as Medify. Others not. And practice makes perfect. One boy we know got an extraordinary score but had practiced for an hour a day for six months. DD was a little bolshy and declared that if medicine required this rather than something more constructive like volunteering, it was not for her. (Curiously he seems to have struggled a bit since arriving at med school which suggests a high UKCAT score is not that accurate a predictor of later academic or clinical performance.)

There are other problems. What is UKCAT testing. Speed to start with, and the ability to concentrate for long periods, plus familiarity with the questions. Some groups, ie those educated in, say, Welsh, are relatively disadvantaged as they wont be as quick. And those with slow processing speeds like DD.

She would not get into Bristol now, nor would many of her friends. Different selection methods will pick up different students. She thinks it is a pity.

I do agree. UCAT is horrible and DD had to rely on the online practice tests and 3 weeks of Medify (£30). And the 1001 questions book which we got from another student.

I am not sure what a fair method of selection would be. DD is a comp educated kid who knows no doctors, but she managed to get there, by jumping through the hoops one stage at a time. Grades are important and even that's not equal. DD now studies with students who had 4 people in their A level
classes - she had 24-26. And less lesson time. But the upside is she started off with very strong skills in self study !! DD2 has had even less lesson time as school now closed at 1.30 on Fridays, but she will work her backside off to succeed.

My point is that your daughter should stop fretting about coming from a comp. She has mother who has a professional career which is a real head start, and she has the skills she has.

Going to a private school does not imply a pupil has fewer, (or more) personal skills. Again a rather tedious MN mantra. They will all have their strengths and weaknesses. DD is content that even though she went to a private school, she is just as used to hard work, and is just as able to organise herself as others. Indeed the ones she says seem to have the most ground to catch up are those, regardless of sector, who were heavily tutored in order to achieve minimum grades, and so struggle with concepts, and don't know how to puzzle things out for themselves.

There is no fretting about coming from a comp 😊. She is very proud of what's she's achieved and I do agree that having parents who can help is a huge advantage. It's why I spend so much time helping students from less advantaged backgrounds - trying to level that playing field a tiny bit. I only mention her schooling as I hope it helps others know that it is not a barrier as some people do think it is. No idea why. She got a great education and loads of opportunities. But it would be disingenuous to not state that kids from schools with less funding do have to self study a lot more than those who have a teacher between 5 of them. And therefore it's harder for them to achieve top grades. And this situation has got worse in the 2 years since DD left - many many schools now close early on Fridays due to lack of funds. And class sizes have grown as less teaching staff. And those staff are teaching more hours so have less time to run clinics, help out of lessons etc. It makes me a 'little' mad.

@goodbyestrager
At our school the kids vote GANFYD so it tends to be relatively cool to be HB/G especially if you wear your power lightly smile Also, I don't think my DC ever had to work hard to earn peer respect! I think anyone interviewing my kids would see that they weren't as you describe - that's incredibly prejudiced on your part, to assume all schools do it as your own DCs' does! I'm a bit surprised.

The kids vote at the schools I was referring to. They see it as an enormous joke, and as I say, nobody from the perceived "cool crowd" would ever put themselves forward for selection.
I suppose I am lucky, then, that my children associate with peers who believe respect should be something you earn and has to be deserved rather than just assumed.
What are you suprised at? That somebody MAY not have the same view of comments on a PS as you? As this was my statement. My personal experience COULD lead to me making assumptions about everybody else. I am glad I am insightful and reflective enough to realise that my personal experience does not necessarily apply to everybody else.

I can't actually remember exactly what was in the various PSs tbh. I simply remember that they weren't arsey or goody goody but straightforward and didn't tend to insult the intelligence of the tutor or admissions guy who read them. You really don't need to explain the obvious in personal statements

Especially if I could not actually remember the PS I was basing these opinions on. You need to explain to the people reading them what it is about you that makes you more suited to being a Dr than the other several thousand PSs they will read. And a list of achievements does not do that as all it tells that person is that you possibly have a school or parents who pushed you to engage in particular activities, not that it was necessarily something the applicant wanted to do and personally gained something from.

@goodbyestranger
DS1 did incredibly little work experience actually so not much to list there either
So how did he know he wanted to be a Dr? I wanted to be an accountant and my husband a priest when we were teenagers, but a bit of work experience soon made us realise, that as wonderful a career as each of those is, it was not suited to us.
Volunteering and other forms of WEx helps let applicants see the realities of a career in medicine and the caring professions and make an educated decision as to whether it is for them

@Needmoresleep
I am not sure UKCAT provides a level playing field....... a high UKCAT score is not that accurate a predictor of later academic or clinical performance.

UCAT has been shown to be far less affected by contextual factors than formal school qualifications. There is still some bias towards those in a higher social class, but not to the same level that there is with A levels. So it is a 'LEVELLER' playing field.

There is considerable evidence that a high UCAT score correlates with performance at med school, and emerging evidence of correlation with performance beyond that. There is weak evidence for A level chemistry in the same way (hence why it used to be used as a requirement) and none for other qualifications (hence why some med schools now do not care what your A levels are in and select purely using UCAT). There is no evidence that PS correlates with performance at med school or beyond, and as commented, the GMC's own research findings, and hence recommendations, were that it is not a good means of selecting applicants. I find this a bit odd in some ways, as interview tests many of the same things, and they all rely on this, but I guess F2F they can be certain that it is an applicants own efforts that they are seeing.
There have been many private companies offering to write a "Bristol PS" or and "Edinburgh PS" when these places places greater weight on PS, with some clained degree of success. Asking an applicant the question themselves at least lets you see what THEY have gained from their WEx or volunteering or ECs!

GANFYD you're a bit uncool yourself about this whole HB/G thing!

@goodbyestranger
In your opinion....
I am merely pointing out that is cannot be taken as read that someone reviewing a PS will have the same interpretation as to what being HB/G means as you do.

I am curious, what is your experience in med school admissions?

My DD went to 6th form college so no head anything. And DD2 at school would rather have teeth taken out than be Head Girl. But she's off to be a vet hopefully later this year.

GANFYD,

Interesting. DD has impressively low processing speeds but has developed compensating skills and learning techniques. She has a very strong memory, a surprising medical general knowledge (mainly culled, I suspect, from House and Greys Anatomy) and is able to grasp concepts quickly. She will be the sort of doctor you would like to come across in A&E as she is calm and knowledgeable.

However UKCAT was a nightmare. Yes she qualified for extra time, but given she probably has to concentrate more than others anyway, she was completely brain dead at the end of ordinary time. Not helped by being in a basement on the hottest day of the year with broken air conditioning. Academically she was offering five A levels with predicted grades at the top of the range, and near fluency in a second language, and her PS confirmed a keen interest in medicine, plus bags of other stuff. But so much depends on UKCAT. She could very easily have not made it.

DD was never going to ace UKCAT, in the same was that she struggled with 11+ and CAT tests.

Yes there may be a strong correlation,
but there are always going to be applicants who are a bit out of the box. One of her friends comes from quite a deprived area, is the first in her family to go to University, has top notch communication skills and will make a super GP, but again has a pretty grim UKCAT score. Welsh mother tongue applicants also seem to struggle. And so much depends on practice and performance on the day. Top slicing by a one off test that favours candidates who can work at speed runs the risk of disadvantaging some who would otherwise be very good. Especially if medical schools who took a different approach are no longer allowed to do so.

Rant over. Luckily DD got her place before the guillotine fell. Genuinely there seem to be very very few, indeed she is the only one she knows, from big name private schools. Which is emphatically not the case with Oxbridge/London, so I am not sure if I fully agree that if offers a leveller playing field. (I might also add that, as a guinea pig on the first year of a new course, resilience has been genuinely important!)

GANFYD ironically, I was a little surprised that you assumed everything was done in the way it's done at your own DCs' school :) Pot and kettle etc!

I think if you look at what I wrote, it was that I couldn't recall exactly what was written. By which I mean I couldn't repeat it verbatim.

It's a wonder DS1 ever got to med school then GANFYD isn't it really? In fact he got three offers from his top three choices (Bristol rejected him without interview but then when he applied Bristol was very personal statement heavy and his personal statement was clearly directed at Oxford/ London). He's done perfectly well at med school too, getting his top choice of rotations at his top choice of London deanery so I don't think his style of not treating admissions tutors as dimwits and not indulging in navel gazing was too huge a mistake. Personal statements are just that.

Needsmore lots of state school kids are out priced from London these days. It is becoming the preserve of rich kids I'm afraid. And lots don't like the Oxbridge theory only for first two years model. I do agree not using PS is not fair either, and DD hated every minute of UCAT (& over performed on the day from all her practice tests). I'm not sure what the answer is as there are more kids who'd make great doctors than places. But hoop jumping seems part of the whole career for doctors so I suppose good they start then early.!

Oxford is fairly competitive for Medicine in fact mumsneedwine, in terms of both numbers and the qualifications of those applying, which might surprise you. Cambridge too

When you say 'the theory' I assume you mean the science........! (Science can actually be useful for doctors, however much you deride it).

I meant not seeing patients as well know. Some want that, some don't - let's not start that again. And yes they are competitive,as is everywhere. Just have less state school kids. As I work with state school kids I have found lots of them want early patient contact do don't apply there. DD did an 11 hour shift shadowing a CP1 surgical on call and got lots from it. That's what she wanted. Some don't.

And strangely all medical students study science. Weird comment !

Not at all, merely being semantic because the first three years at Oxbridge are hard science rather than 'theory'. There's a distinction, as you as a science teacher should know.

DS is a state school kid and a lot of kids at our state school very definitely want those three years of hard science much more than early patient contact, even the lovely ones. I think we may both be guilty of anecdote.

DS has just done two twelve ho

Oh well that is weird, getting half a sentence like that. Rural internet I guess :)

Basically, the shifts are long, yes, agree. DS currently on nights on a busy ward in a busy London hospital.

Mumsneedwine, did you actually look at a London medical school? Lots of London kids go to London medical schools because it is a long course and they are not rich. I would even hazard a guess that because of high aspirations of many ethnic minority families, London produces a higher proportion of less well off med students. Certainly the inner city state school that DDs school paired with for med school application preparation seemed to have as many aspiring doctors, few of whom met the stereotype of white middle class.

DDs med school also has a high proportion of local students. My best guess is that medical schools hope that a proportion of their students will stay to work in the area. Our local GP practice seems mainly supplied by some very good SGUL grads.

@GANFYD Thanks for confirming that the UCAT cut offs for Southampton were standard entry.

DD is trying to narrow down her options but realistically will have a better idea of where she'd get in once she has her own UCAT score in hand.

As DD is educated 100% through the medium of Welsh she needs to ensure that she can get her brain to work as quickly in English, her second language - another factor to throw into the UCAT mix. She had difficulty understanding some questions of her driving theory test for this reason.

A summer of UCAT practice beckons after AS exams (which are still taken in Wales and count for 40% of final A-level grade).

Taking UCAT is hard enough without being in another language ! They should offer it in Welsh to be fair. Maybe why Cardiff ignore it.
And I know lots of London kids go to London Unis as they can live at home. But most students don't come from London and unfortunately it's too expensive for lots of them - us included. We looked but couldn't afford the hall fees let alone rent in future years. DD pays £75 a week which I'm not sure is achievable in London ?

UCAT cut offs are a great place to start looking at options as they do give a good guide. And good to know Southampton ones are coming down.

@Needmoresleep
Yes there may be a strong correlation, but there are always going to be applicants who are a bit out of the box.

I would 100% agree with this. Statistics like this are designed to look at populations and are not directly applicable to any individual within that population.

Welsh mother tongue applicants also seem to struggle.

Those who are UK but do not have English as a first language score about 40 points lower in the UCAT than those with English as a first language. To balance that up AS A GROUP, those having extra time scored over 100 points more than those without. Whilst we cannot apply this directly to your daughter as an individual, statistically, an applicant such as this will have had a net gain in their UCAT score

Whether you feel UCAT levels the playing field up or not is entirely down to you, but the evidence says it removes some of the bias against those from lower social classes versus A levels. I find statistics and research most useful in supporting an opinion, although I would not dispute the adage that there are lies, damned lies and statistics!!

@goodbyestranger

GANFYD ironically, I was a little surprised that you assumed everything was done in the way it's done at your own DCs' school smile Pot and kettle etc!

Which is clearly a ridiculous statement, as the whole point of my posts was to show that not everone has the same experience of a situation, so this should not be assumed and hence why it is important to show what you learned or what is demonstrated by things people put in a PS

It's a wonder DS1 ever got to med school then GANFYD isn't it really?

I have no idea, I have never met your son. But if you say he attended Oxford and is now an F2, this episode happened at least 9 years ago now and may not be applicable to modern admissions standards.

I am not used to the workings of MN, but did I miss where you explained your experience wrt med school admissions?

I'm very happy to say that my experience of medical school applications is as a mum of a 2nd year. And now a teacher who helps other students apply. I learned so much through DD that I took on the role at school and am so proud that 13 students will be applying later this year.