Medicine 2021

[Millylovespuddles]

Hi all
It looks like there’s no medicine 2021 entry thread yet, so it might be an idea to get the ball rolling.
My DD is getting stuck into her A level course, doing well so far, but I’m guessing we parents could do with some mutual support and advice from parents who’ve been here before.

Oh and Southampton are quite secretive about their cut off - but my DD has 2710
And got a late interview (but did get an offer).

Liverpool's threshold for interview for 2019 entry was 2,420.
Sheffield reject anyone below 2,420 but then rank the rest on total UCAT score, so the actual threshold to get an interview can't be predicted. For 2018 entry it was 2,690; I don't have more up-to-date figures.
Nottingham combines the UCAT score with a score for GCSE grades (see www.nottingham.ac.uk/medicine/study/medicine/faq/a100-selection.aspx), so it's not possible to identify a threshold score.
Birmingham does the same, although the scoring system is different from Nottingham's (www.birmingham.ac.uk/schools/medical-school/applying-to-medicine/selection-for-interview.aspx).
I don't know what Southampton's threshold scores in recent years have been.
Bristol's threshold for 2019 was 2,730.

Thank you @mumsneedwine and @SirTobyBelch.

While I'm sorry there's not an easier way to find the info I'm glad DD hasn't wasted hours when it's the only way.

Interestingly, she's managed to find the Southampton's UCAT cut off so they're not that secretive!
700, 625, 640, 663, 645 (2018 entry), 627.5 (2019 entry) 655 ( based on current info for 2020).

Just be aware that those UCATs will include contextual applicants, who will have lower scores. Southampton have notoriously needed quite high to get an interview.

Thanks @mumsneedwine, I hadn't considered that. DD will just need to get a good enough UCAT score so that it's not such an issue - simple!

So simple 😂😂😂. Medify is good. That and a hefty dose of luck on the day. If it's any help my DD got her best score in the actual UCAT - was not doing great in practice ones. It really is not a nice test.

I'm sorry if this is a silly question but is all work experience meant to be written in the PS? Otherwise how do the med schools know? So what you did and how long for e.g x years working as waitress,a week clinical shadowing etc?
That could take up a lot of space on the PS.
And as reflection is important, where does that fit into application?
If they've done a few diff things, this could end up as whole PS?
And some uni's don't use PS?
I know that Keele have a separate form, something like roles and responsibilities but what about the others? Just list it all in prose with a bit of reflection and linking it to qualities it taught you, eg teamwork?

Yes it all goes in the PS and some of it might be picked up and discussed at some interviews, depending on the sty;e of interview. So at Oxford for example my DS was asked which cake he'd recommend to the tutor from the cafe he'd worked in since Y9. That was one of the more tricky questions tbh and he managed to kill at least five minutes discussing the competing merits of the maple and lemon cakes and what might affect the consumer's decision on any particular day.

It's probably quite right not to have a separate space for work experience as some kids have a massive family/ friends advantage over others. There is a separate space on the UCAS form to include paid work with dates, job description, name of referee.

It's probably a bit of a waste of a sentence in the PS to actually say this or that involved teamwork, on the grounds of not needing to state the bleeding obvious!

The reason I referenced team work was a poor example of reflection. I presume some reflection required though in PS then?

I don't know about reflection abitoflight. I've read over all of my DCs' PSs and they've all been pretty matter of fact. I can't say I remember a lot of reflection. I think a lot of people say it's a good thing but the personal statements are just that, so each will have their own style, and my DC just tend to be a bit straightforward/ plain.

Also there's the limiting factor of the character limit. If you complete Ten Tors you don't need to add that it taught endurance, resilience or teamwork because it's already a given. Same as being Head Boy/ Girl. Enough just to state the fact (unless you were a peculiarly autocratic HB/G, the fact of needing to work successfully with others is implied). As far as reading goes I don't recall them saying much more than they read whatever it was they read and found it interesting. As far as work experience goes, they just said what they did.

"Southampton have notoriously needed quite high to get an interview."

Southampton is a joke if you'd asked me. Think too highly of themselves whilst in fact, they're a "nobody", so to speak. I remember asking them some questions in years gone by and they fluffed their way through without quite answering the question(s).

And I think too much store has been placed on the "work experience" element in Medicine applications. Consider those kids who attend the major full-time boarding public schools, for example. Not many, if at all, can claim to have any WE of significance due to the nature of their school type even during the holidays. And yet, the Medicine applicants from these schools are generally very successful. Someone I know very well from DS's school had 4 stunning offers - two BMAT and two (then) UKCAT [two London schools plus Cambridge and Edinburgh].

When I asked him about the work experience he'd done, he smiled at me cheekily and said, "What work experience?" and then gave a big .

And for the record, he's the only person/doctor I know of today who's very successfully studied Medicine at Cambridge (pre-clinical); Oxford (clinical); London (F1 & F2) and now Harvard (Fulbright scholar).

Same as being Head Boy/ Girl. Enough just to state the fact (unless you were a peculiarly autocratic HB/G, the fact of needing to work successfully with others is implied).

I explicity tell people at open days and at any other event that they will get no credit just for saying they were head boy/girl. They need to give some indication of what responsibility this carried and what characteristics they had to demonstrate, as it will vary a lot between schools. I also wouldn't give any credit for simply stating "Ten Tors": it's not my responsibility to look up what this is.

Ten Tors came with a very, very brief explanation because it's now a SW England thing but there's nevertheless no need to say that if you walk 45 or 55 miles over tough terrain in a team you learn teamwork etc. It's obvious. Well, the fact of HB/G was actually noted even if you yourself give the above advice Toby. Other places clearly noted the role. I doubt it varies so hugely that tutors need the particular duties spelled out - that would be a massive waste of space on a UCAS form and also stating some of the very obvious things does rather insult the reader! Anyone elected a HB/G has had a vote of confidence, certainly by their SLT and very often by their peers, which has to be good.

@Triceratops3
700, 625, 640, 663, 645 (2018 entry), 627.5 (2019 entry) 655 ( based on current info for 2020)

I can tell you that the figures for 2018 and 2019 are for standard entry (well, unless the uni lied in the FOI as I always specifically ask for this)

With regard to the PS, these days it is all about reflection. No med school wants to see a list of things a child (and most other med school applicants) has done, they want to see what has been learned from it, how it informed their decision to apply for medicine and how it demonstrates characterisitics considered important for a future medic.
Most med schools do not formally use or score PS, but it may be used at interview or in a tie break situation, so it is important to demonstrate the required qualities.
I would give zero marks for a list of surgeries seen, Consultants shadowed, being head boy/girl/prefect, climbing Everest or builiding an Orphanage in Kenya with bare hands. I am far more impressed by hearing what was learned about medicine and the job shadowing those people and what the other experiences have taught an applicant or how it demonstrates that they have the necessary skills.
Keeping it factual in the form of a list of achievements is not good advice as an assessor may assume an applicant learned nothing from them or lack the communication skills to explain what was learned to others

@goodbyestranger
Anyone elected a HB/G has had a vote of confidence, certainly by their SLT and very often by their peers, which has to be good

Certainly not at my childrens' school, where it is considered considerably uncool to put yourself forward as HB/G, nor at another 2 local schools their friends attend. My DCs would rather have been boiled in oil that put themselves up for this sort of role as it would have destroyed all of their hard-earned peer respect.
If that were mentioned in a PS with no clarifying skills, responsibilities or characteristics, I may therefore be inclined to assume this person was dull, nerdy and not popular with their peers

At our school the kids vote GANFYD so it tends to be relatively cool to be HB/G especially if you wear your power lightly :) Also, I don't think my DC ever had to work hard to earn peer respect! I think anyone interviewing my kids would see that they weren't as you describe - that's incredibly prejudiced on your part, to assume all schools do it as your own DCs' does! I'm a bit surprised.

I can't actually remember exactly what was in the various PSs tbh. I simply remember that they weren't arsey or goody goody but straightforward and didn't tend to insult the intelligence of the tutor or admissions guy who read them. You really don't need to explain the obvious in personal statements. Obviously Oxford ones have to include a fair amount about science, so there wouldn't have been room to list building orphanages with bare hands, had that been an achievement (it wasn't!).

DS1 did incredibly little work experience actually so not much to list there either - it's not easy to get round our neck of the woods and transport is difficult too. I agree with you that there seems to be a set tick box list on med school applications which adds very little.

I'm sure though, at the end of the day, his personal statement was of very little significance and his BMAT score and grades clinched the interviews and those clinched his subsequent offers.

There are a lot of different criteria that can be used to select med students. You do not need to tick them all. You just do your best and then consider who is most likely to offer you a place.

DD had a miserable UKCAT and no BMAT. However she is practical and had done a lot of volunteering (care home for a summer, helping with swimming for the disabled - and then fundraising at her school for it etc, none of which needs family connections.) She did some work experience but oddly it was a couple of doctors who I knew, albeit not very well and via the school run, who offered as they were aware that such w/e could be useful and wanted to encourage a younger generation into medicine. DD was also prefect, played County level sport etc, but that is the sort of person she is, and what she will bring to medicine.

And yes it was almost certainly her PS that helped her gain a med schoolplace. But then she applied to med schools that were clear that they put a lot of emphasis on the PS! If she had a decent UKCAT or had taken BMAT she might have applied elsewhere.

FWIW, the course suits her. It is quite hands on and seemingly very different to courses contemporaries are on in Cambridge and Imperial. And from what mumsneedwine describes, very different to her DDs course.

It's fine. Some medical roles require people to be super academic, but not all. DD is dyslexic (hence poor scores on timed tests like UKCAT) but has a very good memory and learns best by doing and observing.

On the PS I think she explained her interested in medicine and used her volunteering and work experience, and indeed personal experience (she was the sports injury queen) as reasons why she had the interest or evidence for desired skills and aptitudes. If you know the PS will be scored as part of the assessment process, my advice is to look on the website and read the desired attributes closely and then make sure you have covered each and every one, and have evidenced them.

That is great advice. Apply where you are most likely to get an interview. And it does seem that courses differ widely on how they deliver, but at the end of 5 years they will all be doctors. DD spent 11 hours yesterday shadowing a CP1 which she said was amazing. Even though she didn't have a drink or anything to eat for 7 hours and had very sore feet. She is going to invest in a comfy pair of smart shoes before clinical stuff starts next year.

Get UCAT score and then see where is best option and whether want to do BMAT too. Unfortunately less and less Unis are now using the PS, mainly I believe because the GMC realised that some schools have people who write the things for the kids. Which is a bit unfair. But there are enough who still read it to make sure it good. It's all about what you have learned from things, and how that could relate to medicine. So a part time job shows commitment, customer service skills, patience under pressure etc.

Mumsneedwine, are you sure? I had assumed that the problem was that med schools who did not require good UKCAT scores were attracting impossible numbers of applicants (17 to 1 in the case of DDs med school), so were effectively forced to change to make the process manageable. Oddly, though observational, those medical schools that focus on PS seem to have a much higher proportion of state school pupils. Indeed were seen as tricky and less predictable by the private schools we knew. (As someone else has suggested, it is quite hard for boarders to build up a strong portfolio of experience.) DD had to provide contacts for her volunteering, though in her case it was relatively easy as her additional fundraising caused her to be on their website as 'volunteer of the year'. Also interviewers did not have access to the PS, so unless you could talk knowledgably and with enthusiasm, you would have got filtered out there.

There is a MN assumption that DC from some schools waltz effortlessly into med school. I don't think it is true at all. Some DC may find the process relatively easy, but that is presumably because they are outstanding applicants. We know several who had the grades and seemingly should have got places but did not, and DD tells me it is not uncommon for her contemporaries to have applied more than once. Indeed one apparently applied about 5 times. It will be the DC who gets the place, because they look like they have the right motivation and skill set, not because of the school they went to. Other than to get the grades, I would not rely on the school to write a PS (which sounds unlikely anyway) nor to really help with UKCAT preparation, or with advice on where to apply. If you do I suspect there is every chance you will end up disappointed, regardless of the type of school. And also, like DD, assume it may be a two year process. She was lucky to get something first time around but could, equally easily, not have done.

Whether it is needed for an application or not I would really recommend getting experience. It is not unknown for students to get a place and then realise they just don't like the reality of working in a hospital. In particular the manager of the care home suggested some people struggle with working with the elderly yet older people can make up 50% or so of the patient population, so you might as well find out at an early stage. DD enjoyed it, though after spending a season working for a family ski firm, is less sure about paeds.

Was what we were told by several admissions tutors. The GMC were telling schools not to rely heavily on PS. Bristol dropped it completely as a selection tool the following year and several others have followed (including Notts where DD is).

No one just walks into medicine these days. It seems to be a fair process for everyone as getting good grades and UCAT/BMAT is down to the individual. Someone told me that their DS was applying as he saw being a doctor as prestigious. I had to laugh as after her 11 hour shift yesterday DD is under no illusions that there are easier ways to earn a living, but it has made her want it more. If you want to be a doctor then you will be.