too many people having extra time

[IrmaFayLear]

I didn't quite know where to post this, so I've tried here...

Dd came home in some distress as it turns out that 15 out of 20 people in one of her A Level classes are having extra time for exams.

Dd is upset that it now seems that rather than levelling the playing field for people who genuinely need assistance, a minority are being penalised. Furthermore some of these extra-time people are in "competition" with dd in that they are highly ambitious A* people.

Dd said that one girl told her that "slow processing" is the new watchword and they paid for a private assessment. Dd said that this girl has no processing problems when it comes to quick-fire banter on social media and it's never been mentioned before.

If the exams are deemed too short, then surely give everyone 25% extra time? As it is with this particular subject, it's a case of some people being given 25% less time.

I had a quick google and a)there are masses of sites telling you how to get extra time and how to "fail" the tests and b) Ofqual has said that it is getting out of hand.

It is so hard to get these concessions that often it is only clued up, educated middle class parents that know the system well enough and have the time, effort and energy to push for getting what their child needs.

I would agree with this, but would also add that it's the brighter DCs that tend to miss out here. Through 4 different schools, plus stories from friends & relatives elsewhere, including several teachers. If DCs are reaching their expected age targets, then that is when it's likely to be missed that they would benefit from extra time etc.

I had to dig up ridiculous stuff from primary school proving G&T which is bollox anyway in order to push the school to assess my DD as she might be reaching targets, but she wasn't meeting her full potential, which severely affected her MH. Despite 3 significant medical diagnosis & 2 years away from high school due to severe ill health, they refused until I could prove a significant drop in her achievement in high school as she was meeting & exceeding targets.

I meant to add, DCs not reaching targets tend to be monitored & assessed pdq

Well yes, I do understand that. None of us had any ideas that dd had any issues (she was doing slightly above average at an academic independent primary school).

Then she moved to a on academically selective high school and by pure co-incidence her Year 7 form teacher happened to be the SENCO. Her Year 7 spiky CATS profile (off the scale for verbal reasoning but a lot lower for spatial etc, plus various observed behaviours and social difficulties that had previously been written off as quirks led the school to believe that she was performing well below her innate ability. They sent her to an ed psych who tested her IQ which was MENSA level. She did/does not require extra time, but instead other adjustments and strategies such as use of a laptop and understanding how her brain functions.

The children who will never get B's still won't get them even if they get extra time because they do not understand the content

If the exam is measuring understanding of content, why is it time-limited for anyone? Why not just allow all candidates as much time as they need (within reason) to complete the papers?

And if your dd Rockin had been the child of parents who were not as motivated as yourself, who didn't have the wherewithall to fight the system or were just not very educated themselves as lots of the children at ds's school are it's easy to see how many are failed.

And if your dd Rockin had been the child of parents who were not as motivated as yourself, who didn't have the wherewithall to fight the system or were just not very educated themselves as lots of the children at ds's school are it's easy to see how many are failed.

I totally agree with this & I would agree that assessing all DDs in year 5 & year 9 would be a much better system, but I guess it's just not a feasible one given how cash strapped schools are

I would add though, that I think a lot of us with kids with any kind of disabilities or SN do have to learn pdq how to fight the system. I think it's taken up a huge amount of my energy & headspace last 14 years or so, but I also know that you need to know how to play the game, use the right language etc, which I was able to thanks to friends & family in education. Without that back up, it must be doubly harder

Yes, dh is a teacher and even with ds's obvious problems (much more obvious than dd's) it took him to be in an asd training session on an INSET day for the penny to drop. But his training has taught him the right kind of language to use to get somewhere.

@RockinHippy
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that many parents would or do try to claim SEN to gain an advantage (though a small number possibly do given the options that come up on a simple google search) but rather that it is the people whose parents have resources and awareness who may be awarded extra time perhaps even beyond their needs in some cases (like my friend) and those who won't get anything because their parents just accept that their children may be below average in some things and don't recognise it as a disability and the school doesn't either. In my school in a middle class area, it wasn't the kids who most needed the extra assistance who got it. As an adult, I have realised that I likely have some very mild learning issues myself (reading comprehension, IQ, maths abilities all very high, but spacial and social abilities and organising thoughts far less developed, plus far lower than average ability to process when listening as opposed to reading/writing things so I am at a disadvantage in writing essays and/or contributing to complex group discussions as against people who are as bright as myself. I always thought that this was just a strengths and weaknesses thing, and I was top of all my classes at GCSE and A Level (but I did mostly science and maths at A Level and generally did a lot of my learning based on reading from books) until I realised that I just didn't learn and/or process things in the same way as others at university, when things got far more difficult and with more seminar/tutorial work. But I didn't know who I would have approached to investigate this, though of course in retrospect, I wish I had.

Fair point @sendsummer - I should've said, we can't treat it as meaningful on this thread.

But, @thetoddleratemyhomework, it's normal to have some mismatch between different aspects of your IQ. The issue is when they're wildly out of whack, and honestly, unless you are a specialist, you really can't always tell by looking at someone's work, still less by seeing their grades. So the person you describe who had a mismatch but was still managing well isn't a strange case. If you had looked at me at secondary school, I'd have looked the same. But if you look at my ed psych report, it looks very different - for some things I score very highly and for others, I score almost at the bottom of the scale. That means that, even if I'm compensating for what I find difficult, it's an effort.

I don't know if this is morally right or not, TBH, but what adjustments like extra time are designed to do is to support children who have something holding them back that is out of the ordinary - it's not there to try to bring everyone to the same level of achievement.

Furthermore some of these extra-time people are in "competition" with dd in that they are highly ambitious A people.

This is a very disablist comment.

I was assessed as having dyslexia and got extra time. I also excelled in English ( just not handwriting, speed, spelling and complex punctuation)

I got this kind of nonsense from classmates. But an educational psychologist carried out a thorough assessment. You don't get extra time in exams just for asking.

I was certainly an ambitious grade A student who went on to a good university.
I got extra time so I wasn't impacted by my specific learning difficulties. I still had to work very hard myself to overcome these difficulties in addition.
When I arrived at Uni I was registered as a disabled student by them and supported.
But disabled or not the thinking, reasoning and expression still has to come from the student. Fortunately students with disabilities can be just as bright as those without them.

@SarahAndQuack

I do agree with you - I just think it is a bit sad that everyone doesn't get tested as a matter of course really. Because it is so hard to pick up the differential. I guess my point is that what I have seen is a far more severely dyslexic child not getting extra time because his parents didn't know they could and the school didn't ask for him, whereas my friend (who had previously been to private school, had older siblings and clued up parents) got extra time - which was objectively justified in her case, no doubt, but not holding her back nearly as much (particularly as she was especially talented in maths and science, where her disabilities were less of an issue than eg history/English etc). Maybe nowadays schools and parents are more on the ball so hopefully not too many who fall between the cracks?

YY, I agree with that. Even if you get tested and don't come out with a nameable 'thing,' it's still so useful to know where your strengths and weaknesses lie.

Sadly I definitely know children like those you describe who still fall between the cracks.

@SarahAndQuack
Yes, agreed. I definitely don't object to people understanding their abilities and I definitely don't object to the fact that if someone qualifies for reasonable adjustments they should have them, even if they seem able. I definitely would have benefited from understanding my learning strengths and weaknesses and either using that information to "learn better", seek out opportunities to use my strengths and develop weaknesses or, if appropriate, being able to ask for adjustments, even if You would say that have managed to compensate "well enough" for weaknesses (or possibly disabilities - I have never been assessed) through my life and I think that should be the gold standard for everyone.

I guess for me it is just that sense that the system is unfair not really because people are gaming it by pretending and more because maybe the way it is set up probably reinforces inequalities in arms - the crap school / less informed, lacking in confidence about trying to manage your kids learning (because you thought you were crap at school) or poor (and unable to afford educational assessment) parent combination may mean that the kids who probably need these things most don't get them whilst possibly more able pupils with engaged parents get them.

Where does this 'extra time' end?

Will they get 'extra time' at College/Uni?

Will they get 'extra time' in their job?

Yes, extra time is allowed at university. The Equality Act of 2010 requires employers make 'reasonable adjustments,' which could include giving someone a longer deadline but is more likely to involve other reach-arounds. Mine let me use software to mark exams rather than writing by hand, for example (and then everyone got software!); I got extra budget for photocopying at one point (because reading double-sided print is difficult for me - it's the way the letters show through).

I know people who had extra time in my exams for 'nerves'. We're all fucking nervous, Karen.

If so many people can't handle exams within time then we need to reassess the times because at this rate the top 20% of the class are being given the least time... allowing less able people to catch up to them in an unfair advantage.

Unless they had a disability (dyslexia etc) then exams need to be an equal playing field or theyre just punishing kids without issues

I got extra time at university and a computer in my own room, when most people were handwriting in halls.
Initially I didn't have the confidence to do a job with much writing but after a few years in a more practical job I gained professional qualifications and such a job.
My employers have always understood that I need more time to write lengthy documents and getting them proof read is a good idea for areas like court.
But I'm smart, hardworking and dedicated to the work I do so my employers have all been happy with my performance.
But yes as an adult I know how much time I need to write a long report and give myself enough time to do a good job. @Lavenderblues

Will they get 'extra time' in their job?

As I said earlier, if exams are testing understanding of a subject, rather than how quickly you can write, it's difficult to see why they are time-limited at all. Why not give everyone as long as they need - with an 'average' time stated as a guideline so that no one would worry that they might not be giving enough time to it?

If an exam is supposed to be a test of how quickly you can do something, it's difficult to see how it would have real-world relevance if times are adjusted.

Some things being put forward as unequivocal proof of specific learning difficulties in this thread are things which genuinely do apply to 75% of students (at least) - not reading the question properly and answering a different question well and therefore losing marks is an absolute standard mistake under exam circumstances - that happens at one point or another to well over 50% of students on mocks and practice exams in essay subjects.

Similarly in essay subjects it's incredibly common for candidates to spend far too much time and mental energy answering the first of two essay questions to a near full marks standard and be left with far too little time for the equally weighted second question, therefore getting a C (in "old money") instead of the A+ the first question was worth.

Equally most people have discrepancies within their ability and intelligence profiles - genuine all rounders are incredibly rare.

Dyslexia doesn't necessarily get you extra time. 2 of my children have Duane us and don't get extra time.
They are further disadvantaged by the fact that spellings account for 10% of the marks for GCSE English with NO allowances made for dyslexia. Completely unfair and further discrimination against those with dyslexia.

Time is money in business. Employers cannot always afford to give extra time for work to be done so they simply don’t employ people who don’t meet their criteria. So many jobs are pressurised. If DC are used to all these concessions the real world will be a shock.

I agree Businesses make it harder for disabled people to get work, despite that being totally illegal. Fortunately, not all employers are so short sighted and discriminatory, and will comply with their legal obligations to provide Reasonable Adjustments.

No one has offered an explanation yet as to why any exams have a time limit, for any student.

Does something like slow processing & poor working memory (these seemed to be the ones that were coming up again and again in the last few years of my teaching experience, usually with 10-25% extra time) count as a disability as defined and covered by the Equality Act? I don't know. If they aren't then employers don't have to make reasonable adjustments. I feel like it would be fair of an employer to decide, faced with two candidates who can do the job to the same level, but one of which will take four hours to do it rather than three, that they want to hire the quicker worker.