too many people having extra time

[IrmaFayLear]

I didn't quite know where to post this, so I've tried here...

Dd came home in some distress as it turns out that 15 out of 20 people in one of her A Level classes are having extra time for exams.

Dd is upset that it now seems that rather than levelling the playing field for people who genuinely need assistance, a minority are being penalised. Furthermore some of these extra-time people are in "competition" with dd in that they are highly ambitious A* people.

Dd said that one girl told her that "slow processing" is the new watchword and they paid for a private assessment. Dd said that this girl has no processing problems when it comes to quick-fire banter on social media and it's never been mentioned before.

If the exams are deemed too short, then surely give everyone 25% extra time? As it is with this particular subject, it's a case of some people being given 25% less time.

I had a quick google and a)there are masses of sites telling you how to get extra time and how to "fail" the tests and b) Ofqual has said that it is getting out of hand.

Normal is defined as being within one standard deviation. It covers 68% of the population.
Just to clarify for those who aren't into Maths, that means the middle 68%. The other 32% are outside 'normalness', usually split fairly evenly so that means 16% above-normal and 16% below-normal.
So you only get help if you are bottom 16%. Not because you asked somebody nicely.

@FraggleRocking absolutely shocking the comments by lots of posters.

@BubblesBuddy what exactly is registered disabled- this existed 30 ish years ago. If disabilities are an issue Employers are required to look at whether Reasonable Adjustments are needed and whether this can help. Sometimes they can't . I know as a disabled person there are jobs that no Reasonable adjustments would work, but to be judged without this being even looked at or considered is wrong.

Fortunately with exams we are able to level the playing field and that is to be celebrated.

“Registered” was shorthand. I used it to convey an understanding of disability that is common. This thread begs the question as to what “disabled” means in the workplace beyond education.

Slow processing will be difficult to prove as a disability I would have thought. If, via tests employers conduct and applications they adhere to, many potential employees claim they are disabled but it’s slow processing, I just feel these candidates will not be seen as suitable for particular careers. They will be filtered out. It’s absolutely inevitable.

Very many employers would find it very difficult to make reasonable adjustments for a team member who just holds up the whole team’s productivity because it’s such a big cost issue. It’s therefore difficult to employ a person who says they are disabled on those grounds. Is it also self declaring? Do they get disability payments ? (Sorry if that’s not up to date info either but you know what I mean). How is the employer to judge the impact of “slow processing” on their business? Even, as can be seen here, educationalists are finding the concept difficult and not universally applied.

Employers should look at what adjustments can be made. So could there be additional software which could be offered? Could they have more rest breaks or whatever. It's actually a legal requirement to do this, not an optional extra. Many disabled people can be just as productive with extra adjustments.

As for disability benefits, that is a hot topic as the government want to get more disabled people into work while at the same time cutting support for them. As a society we can not have it both ways, say more disabled people need to work (something I agree with as many many people need small adjustments to make a real contribution) and then say 'ah poor business and their need to make easy profits ignoring the law' I know that happens, and I despair at the Attitude of so many people, who seek to justify it.

I have not had time to read all the posts so this point may be covered. In a subject like Maths, say, you will find a much higher proportion of dyslexics than, say, English. My DS says a lot of his A level maths class are dyslexic - not really a surprise given that they all had more difficulty with essay writing subjects!

Slow processing speed is all about the ability to process expressive and receptive language and nothing whatsoever to do with cognitive ability. Someone with a very low IQ could be given all the time in the world but it wouldn’t make a blind bit of difference to the end result.
It’s the schools themselves who push students to get extra time, scribes, rest breaks etc. In other words any additional support that they can get that will optimise the students chances of success. This is all to do with school accountability and bugger all to do with what’s appropriate in many cases. It’s not uncommon in primary school Y6 SATs for half the class to have similar arrangements.
BTW OP, we didn’t need POA to pay MILs care home fee supplement. We just get her bills and pay using her bank card.

It’s the schools themselves who push students to get extra time, scribes, rest breaks etc.
It certainly wasn't in DS's case. The school never noticed, then denied the possibility until I got independent proof.
It sounds like schools may have gone to the opposite extreme now. The usual case of the pendulum swinging too far from one unsuitable situation to a different, but equally unsuitable, situation?

If business cannot make reasonable profits they won’t employ people at all. They actually go bankrupt. We need profitable business for the sake of everyone!

Yes they should make reasonable adjustments. Of course disabled people can make a huge contribution but for intellectual work where speed counts, it’s difficult to make adjustments for slow processing issues that do not impinge greatly on profitability. Therefore even the brightest people might find it very challenging in the workplace and perhaps avoid certain careers? I also think there is an issue around a prospective employee just saying they have issues. The number of DC getting extra time, even at its lowest percentage, doesn’t correlate to those in society with recognised disabilities and Government data.

As a society we can not have it both ways, say more disabled people need to work then say 'ah poor business and their need to make easy profits ignoring the law' I know that happens,

That is indeed a difficult balance, because companies exist primarily to make a profit.

it’s difficult to make adjustments for slow processing issues that do not impinge greatly on profitability.

Hmmm, and I say this with a DD with extremely low processing speeds.

@Stollen23 that is the attitude of government who, in my view, should support disabled people into work. Many many reasonable adjustments are very low cost and make a tremendous difference to individuals.

@BubblesBuddy actually you can and you should be able to assess each person as an individual and look at the adjustments that could help. I despair that businesses write off whole groups of people because it's easier than obeying a crucial part of the law. If adjustments can't be made that's one issue but to not treat people as individuals is wrong.

19% of working age adults are disabled. Not all in work as they are twice as likely to be unemployed. The inequality is real and attitudes need to change.

Many many reasonable adjustments are very low cost

The questions are 1) how low cost (as a % of profit) and 2) will the companies or the Government pay these additional costs?

I agree that everyone who wants to work should be able to!

Fgs! It is not particularly surprising that the OP's dd was a bit taken aback on realising that she was one of the few people in the exam who didn't have extra time, as it's obviously an unusual proportion!

However, that doesn't mean that any of those kids have pushed for advantages they don't need. It's probably just a figure skewed by a particular cohort in a particular subject at a particular school happening to have a large number of students who need extra time!

@Stollen23 yes the government used to pay the cost if large but expects the employer to pay the initial part (I believe they used to pay more until austerity which hit disabled people all ways)
But hey I expect a bit more profit is more important. I really despair. It's the law.
Let's not make any adjustments for anyone in work or exams!!

75% in the class is a high number. I don't think any of us can argue that is higher than you would expect.

It could be the class does have a higher than average number of students with SpLD or that, as a better school in the area, it is more attractive to the parents of children with SpLD for one reason or another.

Given how difficult some posters have found getting support for their children, if there are genuinely 75% in the class who do have SpLD and are getting support they need then that is fantastic.

However, I can understand why it would be a shock to OP and her DD as it is a very high percentage for a class. If it is genuine then I do not think OP would have an issue and would feel glad these children are getting at least some support to help them achieve their potential. However, you also have to be open to the possibility that, at 75%, the percentage is so high there could be a risk of some 'gaming' the system for whatever reason.

I would hate to think that there are people who do not need support 'gaming' the system in one way and potentially taking the support away from a disabled child who needs it or whose 'gaming' could cause the rules to be tightened up so much that a child with disabilities has even more problems getting the support they need in the future.

I think CornishMaid1 has hit the nail on the head perfectly.

Personally I don't understand why exams are timed - it's rare in a workplace that you would be under such time pressure. It would, in my opinion, be much better to allow more than enough time to complete the papers so that it is a level playing field. So let all the DC have 2.5 hours if the paper is estimated to take 2 hours. No one cheats the system and everyone is seen in the best possible light.

I think CornishMaid1 has hit the nail on the head perfectly
I agree.It's much more realistic to consider the whole picture than it is to try and pretend that poor practice in the system doesn't exist.

In one of my classes 100% of the students have SEND needs and access arrangements. It's their normal way of working and it's been embedded, their class books over the years reflect perfectly what's in their reports and there's loads of support in place in classes too.

Equally I've seen first hand some questionable practice over the years, parents sharing tips on getting the report they want, sudden claims of additional needs just after mocks etc.

The idea that people who arent / haven't been in education can claim the system can't be gamed is frankly ridiculous.

Many jobs require output in a given time. Just to keep on top of workload for a start. And not work excessive hours. Loads of jobs require work to be completed accurately and quickly and that’s reasonable. Many disabled people can do that totally effectively. Employers know exams are timed and that obviously helps with selection processes. However many have their own tests for competencies they are looking for. Of course genuine disabled applicants should have adjustments but who decides who is disabled?

So let all the DC have 2.5 hours if the paper is estimated to take 2 hours

Perhaps that is already happening? I know that the gcse maths paper takes most pupils far less than the allowed 2 hours!

@BrightonBB ultimately a court would as it's laid out in the Equality Act. But Occupational Health doctors will take a view on whether it is likely to meet the terms of the legal definition.
People self declare In the first instance

Sorry for tagging the wrong person there- can I amend that?

@BubblesBuddy my dh has dyslexia, dyscalculia , dysgraphia and dyspraxia .
He was only diagnosed when he was 38 ,by which time he'd completed a science degree and a Medical degree...but had not been afforded any extra concessions and it finally seriously affected his mental health - so much so he had a breakdown and had to give up his medical career
He was then assessed for SpLD as he could not pass a higher medical qualification and thus decided to change career and study Law! He may have a slow processing speed and lousy short term memory , but also excels in other area and has IQ of 158
So it takes him a bit longer to process something, but he then remembers it it great detail and he's now a very successful Barrister in a very niche , sought after area of the Law
Our 3dc are all 'on the spectrum' , all have high IQs , degrees and all high achievers but do not like being 'labelled' and middle dd hates ticking the box on applications to say she has dyslexia, despite the protection it should offer her in the workplace
They've all worked incredibly hard and yes the extra time they were so kindly given definitely made a difference in exams...although middle dd eventually went to college to do BTEC as it suited her learning style and had no end of module exams ( eldest didn't even have exams in her final year of university!)
However exams are so unnatural and are not a true representation of someone's abilities
It saddens me to see there is still so much ignorance and prejudice surrounding learning difficulties

Interesting post, Stop, - definitely agree about exams, we are too hung up on 1 precise way of measuring ability and a precise version of intelligence.

At universities I've worked in a lot of them get extra time etc etc for breaking a nail. It's gotten beyond ridiculous.