A level Spanish etc for bilingual kids whose mother tongues are English/Spanish

[rattusrattus20]

Apologies if this is a frequently asked question.

If you have kids who are Spanish near-bilingual (now aged 10), what are the chances that in 8 & a bit years' time a university is going to accept a [hopefully really good grade in] a Spanish A level as a valid pass when making offers? Are there any steps that could be taken [I'm not exactly talking about hiding their Spanish proficiency from the school but YKWIM] now to increase the chances that the A levels would be accepted?

But I think you are out to beat the system, frankly. Why else would someone take an exam in something they have already mastered? It's a two-pronged game: an A* for A Level which is achieved on a very much uneven playing field, and then possibly using the language as a way in to an elite university. So studying Spanish when one is Spanish, just as a means of getting into Oxbridge etc. What does such a student do in the year abroad?! Sit in a Spanish person's house pretending they don't understand and feigning amazement at the culture?

think people are being naive if they think native speakers, and I mean truly native speakers, not those who have become fluent in another language which not their mother tongue, won't be studying language courses/modules at most universities in the UK
No not naive just saying the fact it is happening does n’t make it right.

I am bilingual and my DCs are fluentish in the second language. Of course even at that level it would have been a huge advantage at A level and degree. Much much less time spent labouring over comprehension of a text before being able to start on literature analysis is just one of the obvious advantages.
Bringing up your DCs bilingual has given them a lifelong advantage. IMO however encouraging them to do a degree or even an A level which requires far less effort than their UK peers won’t be particularly good for their long term self-esteem; they will have to continually justify that ‘easier’ choice in adult life.

I don't think it's an easier choice in life. I doubt my DC will have any clue (or inclination) to learn how to write Spanish properly.

I think they'll have a better "ear" but that's where it ends.

My DD is 9 and she has no real interest in languages even though she's been surrounded by them. She also has to learn Hebrew for her bat mitzvah and the only way I've convinced her to learn it by bribing her with a massive party and a summer camp in Israel.

Rainbow so she won’t be even fluent(ish) in a second language and my above post does n’t apply to her.

Fair point. Also a moot point in my case as she'll be doing IB rather than A Levels.

"Well Welsh native speakers would be doing all their GCSEs in Welsh probably, so easy to suss them out.
Welsh for native speakers is more like English Lit."

In fact in practice, neither of these things is actually true. DD took Welsh first language, but all of her other GCSE options were in English - she went to a bilingual school but they only offered humanities to GCSE through Welsh medium, and she chose all science / tech options.

If you take GCSE first language Welsh, there are both language and literature GCSEs, just as with English. DD dropped Welsh lit, as did quite a few others who were more science oriented, but others in her class ended up with four language GCSEs (Eng lang, Eng lit, Welsh lang, Welsh lit).

The overwhelming reason to choose Welsh first language as oppose to second is simply the value of the qualification. DD got a C in first language, where she could probably have got an A* in second language. But - if she goes for a job where speaking Welsh is an advantage, the first language qualification will stand head and shoulders above second language even with a lower grade (because it demonstrates a whole different level of skill).

I suspect if 'first language' GCSEs / A levels were offered for French, Spanish etc they would be popular for that reason - an employer is far more likely to view them as evidence of genuine mastery of a language.

I agree Sadik.

I already said that my DD is doing Maths {hmm] but if she wanted to do a) Spaish b) English or d) French why the hell shouldn't she... because your child is less strong at languages I am 'cheating the sustem'? Rubbish.

The IB is FAR harder than A levels. You can't count my DD out of various subjects because she can speak the language (and has missed out on years of being taught English correctly)

Her English friend came to stay this year 'Oh I done this at school' I was horrified. My DD honestly speaks English better than her.

and excuse my Spanish autocorrect.

IMO however encouraging them to do a degree or even an A level which requires far less effort than their UK peers won’t be particularly good for their long term self-esteem; they will have to continually justify that ‘easier’ choice in adult life.

Which is why most bilingual kids do 4 A-levels!

But I think you are out to beat the system, frankly. Why else would someone take an exam in something they have already mastered?

Because there is still a lot to learn! Even a partly bilingual child that can speak the language will learn a lot of grammar, spelling and vocabulary.

BillieEllish IB has the huge advantage of offering what Sadik suggests, a bilingual diploma. I presume your DD is doing that?

The only subject I would suggest DCs not doing as a degree is a MFL degree in the primary language they have been educated in at school.

Are you saying that her English has suffered from being brought up as she has or that she speaks it better than UK friends? Your posts are a bit contradictory.

Lavenderblues much better to spend that time doing. a more advanced language equivalent out of school that would be recognised by international employers as higher proficiency than A levels.

sendsummer sorry if I seem contradictory. Thank you for your post. My main points are that the UK is so far behind on languages that it would be very easy to outshine any language student educated in the U.K, wherever you are from, whatever language you speak.

DD has been massively disadvantaged here in Spain with regards to her English, but as me and fussychica have outlined, we have been to enormous lengths to ensure our DC's still did well at English, against the odds. Following the English curriculum. NOT EFL. Which is what is taught in schools.

She does her schooling purely in Spanish/French/Valenciano, I do the rest.

I am also an English teacher so have that advantage. None of this has been easy at all. While you are all getting a black belt in karate or whatever, I am making sure my DD speaks perfect English. Every night.

Yes, I was amazed at the level of English my DD's friend spoke. She will not be doing English at university, that is for sure.

My point is, being bilingual is not the easy option people out there that some seem to think it is. Not at all.

Happy to say though, DD speaks Spanish like a Spaniard and English like an Englishwoman. I am proud of that, if she wanted to do Eng Lit or Spanish, or Modern Languages, good for her. But, she wants to do maths (which people good at languages are also very good at)

Nobody is cheating the system, that makes my blood boil. As Lavenderblue has said, she will do an Eng A level and probably a Spanish A level, privatively, as standard, as extra to her IB.

I agree with the poster who said the clue is in the name - Modern Foreign Languages. If a person has been brought up speaking the language they're doing an exam in, then it's definitely cheating as compared to someone learning it as a foreign language.

My DCs are younger, so I didn't even know this was something that would be allowed. Shockingly poor form from those taking the exam as well as the exam boards / universities that allow it to happen.

'Shockingly' narrowminded.

DC school advised our DC NOT to consider taking an A level in their native language - even as a fourth A level - because it would not be rated highly by RG universities.
They were quite happy to take this advice and took other A levels. They have always added native speaker ability in their other language to their CV and I suspect that universities and employers will have given them credit for that. They have all said they would have found it a bit dull to have been doing translations and proses in their native language when there were so many other interesting subjects to pursue.

Completely agree @FlyingTaxis - should definitely go on CV and other applications as it's a brilliant thing to have & absolutely should make potential employers aware of abilities in this area.

BillieEllish bringing up DCs near or complete bilinguals does not have to be quite such a big burden as you make it out. Honest. My siblings have managed it fine for their DCs without stinting on fun.
Your DD is trilingual which is great.

English Lit as a native language would be fine. Spanish as a MFL not, for all the ‘narrow minded’ reasons of fairness and potential intellectual laziness.

Exactly. Bilingualism is great for many reasons, not least employability.

But entering Modern FOREIGN Language exams is not playing fair. My dd is very good at French, for an English person . She is utterly crap, if she were French .

Yes, I agree about the "bilingual burden" . My dns are completely bilingual. No special effort was made at all (and both kept their heads well down at school, even when the teacher told the class that trifle was rice pudding with jelly on the top).

Thanks for the continued responses.

I tend to agree that bilingualism is easy if we're talking about ideal circumstances, e.g. affluent couple [one parent UK native speaker, teh other MFL native speaker] raising kids in UK, kids attend good schools, grow up speaking English amongst their friends, but throughout their early lives average say a few hours per week in the MFL, through somec combination of conversations with the parent, deep immersion on family holidays to see cousins, film, TV, books, etc.

E.g. I mentioned my neighbour's bilingual kid getting ABBB at A level, with the A coming in the MFL, I would be stunned if this pattern reflects an unusual talent for language rather than the simpler explanation.

DD has started 4 A levels and is adamant that she is dropping French soon although that leaves her with 3 maths/sciences. Why? Because of the numbers of native speakers in her class. The MFL department have already cautioned pupils that at best non-native speakers can work towards an A and that is only with working extremely hard.

At a time when we are looking to leave the EU and language skills will be under such a demand it seems crazy to me that no one has done anything to address this. As more native speakers skew the results then an even bigger number of non-native speakers will be put off so the proportion of native speakers sitting becomes bigger every year. All it would take is a recognition of this from universities and the offer of a one grade discount to anyone studying a language.

DS1 took French and as is the usual in London half of his class were native speakers. One native speaker sat the Oxford atptitude for languages test in French and was offered a place, he was very bright and his French was so good he could correct the teachers. He got a grade A for A level French, fortunately he Ad another subject to make his offer. If somebody of that ability and work ethic can't get an A then it is hardly surprising that DD thinks Chemistry looks an easier choice for a good grade.

If I sound angry and bitter it's because I am.

I suspect if 'first language' GCSEs / A levels were offered for French, Spanish etc they would be popular for that reason - an employer is far more likely to view them as evidence of genuine mastery of a language

True, but it's easy enough to do an exam from the relevant cultural institute to show your ability, though I guess they are designed for non-native speakers too, but even so, a C1/C2 level qualification shows that you are very good at that language and you can then use your A level choices for other subjects.