A level Spanish etc for bilingual kids whose mother tongues are English/Spanish

[rattusrattus20]

Apologies if this is a frequently asked question.

If you have kids who are Spanish near-bilingual (now aged 10), what are the chances that in 8 & a bit years' time a university is going to accept a [hopefully really good grade in] a Spanish A level as a valid pass when making offers? Are there any steps that could be taken [I'm not exactly talking about hiding their Spanish proficiency from the school but YKWIM] now to increase the chances that the A levels would be accepted?

At my DCs' (independent) school, pupils with a native foreign language ( Russian, Mandarin , modern Greek) which is not taught at the school, often take A Levels in that language as an extra. They invariably get A*, often with very little work.

It’s part of the bigger problem of the grade having more value than the subject. Both DS1 and DD have chosen one subject that they believe they could get a high mark. Many of their friends doing the same or choosing BTECs purely for the higher grade. With A* and As being so important then it makes sense if you have the ability then take the exam with more time for the other subjects. It is just a shame that in a country with a poor reputation for MFL there will be even less attempting. But equally if more resources was put in at primary school then the gap may not be so wide.

Fifthtimelucky is right that a ‘near native speaker’ syllabus and exam for both GCSE and A level MFLs would be the way forward.
The qualification would be evidence of a higher language level useful for further employment plus the DCs would n’t be sitting in their MFL classes being bored and would actually become more proficient in their second language. Both incentives not simply to go for the non native option.

In most schools with insufficient numbers of near native speakers it would require some self-study and possibly an online component but with a clear syllabus and study materials and usually a native speaker at home that should n’t be insurmountable.

I don’t really understand why fussychica’s thinks it is unfair that a DC who is.educated as native Spanish speaker should be excluded from a UK Spanish degree or Spanish module.

Of course UK universities could consider developing option modules targeted appropriately to native or near native speaker, for example in the literature of their language. That would address the needs of those who have a genuine academic interest at degree level rather than just wanting to increase their chances of entry at a higher status university or to get some easy degree credits.

Fifthtimelucky is right that a ‘near native speaker’ syllabus and exam for both GCSE and A level MFLs would be the way forward.

Yes that would be the ideal I think, but i think in reality it would be almost impossible to implement - how would you prevent native speakers from entering the standard A level? And then how do you define near native speaker - you might have a student who doesn't speak the mfl at home but does with gparents, or who spends 6 weeks every summer with relations in the mfl country? That person probably isn't 'near native' speaker, but still has an advantage over non native speakers, particularly in the oral (which is about 20%? ) Cue many disputes with school/exam board!

I think one problem is that generally grades are treated as a measure of academic ability as well as subject knowledge. So for a non native speaker, the logical choice is not to do an mfl, unless the grades are determined on a strictly 'criteria based' formula - in other words you aren't competing against others, but simply have to reach a certain level of vocab, grammar, comprehension etc.

My own DD has taken French for A Level but is a bit grr about all these hidden native speakers.

My son got a 9 for GCSE and took French for Alevel. He switched courses at the end of year 12 due to the inflated grade boundaries and the fact that even if he worked his ass off, he'd never get near the grade he needed to get into the university of his choice. The subject of native speakers didn't come into the conversations with sixth form but as a language teacher myself, I cannot see any other factor in why the boundaries are so ridiculously high. The leap from GCSE wasn't the issue.

You need to think about this from your child's perspective.
If they can very easily obtain a top grade in Spanish with very little effort then are they able to comfortably take the uni course that assumed they needed to have worked at that A level.
For example if a uni course states 3 A's and your child only and to full apply themselves to gain the other Two A's then maybe they will get a shock and be unprepared for the level required from the university.

Soonerthanthought I hear that some universities providing optional MFL modules will interview / test to assess level.
Teachers should be able to do that from for example an end of year 7 work plus an oral test. At that age they are less likely to deliberately dissumulate any language advantage.
Minor advantages for vocabulary can’t be corrected for though and are less of a worry.

Is there anyone here from Wales, who knows how schools differentiate between native speakers and others? I guess it has the be down to the integrity of the school to prepare and enter children for the appropriate exam, but there must be a bit of a grey area with some pupils.

More generally, I'm glad to say that some children are not put off languages. I have a niece who took French and German A levels in the summer and is now studying German at university. No family help available, unless you count my sister's very rusty O levels!

I took my native language A Level privately in addition to the others, so that may be the way forward. If they are proficient in Spanish enough to get an A at A Level (bilingual kids often have weaker written / grammar skills so this might not be the case - all the native French kids in my school, for example, rarely got higher than a B at either GCSE or A Level) then seek to arrange this privately now and encourage them to take another language at GCSE / A Level.

You need to think about this from your child's perspective.
If they can very easily obtain a top grade in Spanish with very little effort then are they able to comfortably take the uni course that assumed they needed to have worked at that A level.
For example if a uni course states 3 A's and your child only and to full apply themselves to gain the other Two A's then maybe they will get a shock and be unprepared for the level required from the university.

Which is why many bilingual kids take 4 A levels! This also avoids the problem of Unis potentially not counting the language A level in their offer.

Chillisauceboss - interesting, thanks. A neighbour has kids who are fluent in another ML, 18 yr old's grades were A*BBB, no prizes for guessing which subject the A8 came in.

sorry, the A*, not A8.

Is there anyone here from Wales, who knows how schools differentiate between native speakers and others

I was also wondering this as I know they have GCSEs and A levels for first and second language speakers.

It's impossible to define and identify who is or isn't a native or near native speaker.

It is also hard to judge the the advantages, DD had two French speaking children in her class, the child whose native language was French was a child refugee and lived with British parents from the age of nine, the other child has a french step parent and all holidays in France. The child who was a refugee whilst ahead of most of the class was nowhere near the child brought up in a bilingual home.

Is there anyone here from Wales, who knows how schools differentiate between native speakers and others

I don't know how it is now, but it used to be based on the category of school you went to. So if you went to a Welsh medium school or a bilingual-predominantly-Welsh medium school then you did the first language exams, but if you went to a bilingual-predominantly-English medium school or an English medium school you did the second language exams.

It has always been a bit fraught and subject to change though, for cultural reasons more than anything else. They seem to be planning to go back to a single exam again in the near future.

Well Welsh native speakers would be doing all their GCSEs in Welsh probably, so easy to suss them out.

Welsh for native speakers is more like English Lit.

I think it will depend on the child. I'm bilingual but I don't hold much hope for my DC. Some are better at it than others.

sendsummer I thought it was a bit unfair because a. He isn't a native Spaniard and didn't start to learn Spanish until he was 10; b. he wanted to do a multi language degree rather than Spanish so not looking for an easy ride though if he had wanted to take just Spanish at Oxford the course is pretty much literature based so no different from an English native speaker studying for an English degree; c. If you want to take the language further post A level the options are limited.

Fortunately he found universities, other than Bath, more accommodating. He now teaches Spanish, French, German and Latin.

Obviously all the MFL native speakers are taking the rest of their gcses and A levels in English so at a potential disadvantage to native speakers in those but I get the issue with grade boundaries etc.

I mentioned this to my son's personal tutor at 6th form college yesterday, as she is also his Spanish teacher. She said that non native speakers tend to get the better grades, and that she has had a few people who've thought they can just rock up to the exam and get an A and it hasn't worked out that way. You don't just need the language, you also need to study literature, films etc so you can't just get an A for knowing the language fluently. One person got a D!

She did say that occasionally there have been people in her classes who speak Spanish fluently and she has had to tell them to let others in the class try! But this year, there is only one native/bilingual speaker in ds' class of 10 who is helpful and not a show-off so it looks good for him.

What I am getting from this thread though is that if you are bilingual but want a piece of paper that proves the other language competency (like your Eng lang GCSE) perhaps go off to the Alliance Francaise or Goethe Institut or whatever and do their exam at the appropriate level to prove your knowledge. Rather than doing an "easy" A level.

tricky - my DS did GCSE Japanese a year before his main GCSEs and got A*. But my DD shows no interest in doing the GCSE and her level is such that she wouldn't get anything like that mark.

DS simply learned more - also as first born had perhaps more attention initially which helped?

So a fully native speaker might have a clear advantage, but a child brought up in a bilingual household where eg only one parent speaks the language - the advantages are less clear cut.

I had a thread on this subject a while ago, when dd was trying to choose A Levels.

I read the OFQUAL report and, as Phphion noted, it's impossible to ascertain who is a native speaker. Ofqual sent out a questionnaire to sixth forms, but many declined to reply full stop (why admit that their grades are due to native speakers and not excellent teaching?!) and also who is to tell who is a native speaker. Dd's friend is half French. Her surname couldn't be more English, however. No one would know from a piece of paper what her background was.

The mutterings are, however, that the grade boundaries might be lowered because otherwise it is the case that the A*s are hoovered up by the native speakers.

I'm finding this thread really interesting. I had no idea about the native speaker issue until I had a conversation with one of the signatories to the letter sent to Ofqual, and until I noticed the prevalence of parents with French and German accents, in the sessions DS and I attended at open days and offer holder days. DS1 was committed by that stage (3 languages at A Level) and got a place at an excellent university to study 3 languages, but DS2 chose History over French because it was apparent that the same level of competence in History as in French, would probably deliver a higher grade.