A level Spanish etc for bilingual kids whose mother tongues are English/Spanish

[rattusrattus20]

Apologies if this is a frequently asked question.

If you have kids who are Spanish near-bilingual (now aged 10), what are the chances that in 8 & a bit years' time a university is going to accept a [hopefully really good grade in] a Spanish A level as a valid pass when making offers? Are there any steps that could be taken [I'm not exactly talking about hiding their Spanish proficiency from the school but YKWIM] now to increase the chances that the A levels would be accepted?

DS studied Bachillerato, rather than A levels, in Spain so was fluent in the language.
Spanish at Oxford the course is pretty much literature based so no different from an English native speaker studying for an English degree;
A Spanish literature degree for non native speakers is not the same as a English literature degree aime at an English speaker.
Obviously both require an aptitude for literature but the former requires also an aptitude for learning Spanish as a MFL which a student like your DS would not require. Therefore he would have an unfair advantage. Even more so if he took a Spanish degree with a predominantly language component.

It is interesting that you do not appear to see that.

Interestingly I know someone at a university in Europe who was taking English and she was challenged about having English as a mother tongue, despite her name (I suppose her competence was a bit of a giveaway). She suffered quite a dressing down, was accused of "cheating" and made to change course. Absolutely true as this is a close family member.

On a positive note, ds is at Oxbridge and I buttonholed a couple of his friends studying MFL and none of them were mother tongue people. I guess for Oxbridge an interview can weed them out.

Irma, I know someone who did French at Oxbridge (admittedly about 10 years ago) whose parents were both French. She had an English accent, ( and an Anglo-Saxon first name) as she had been brought up here, but French was her first language at home.The universities we attended where there seemed to be a fair number of parents whose accent matched the course being discussed, were two of the most obvious " Oxbridge reject" universities you could imagine- all wanting AAA grades.

The mutterings are, however, that the grade boundaries might be lowered because otherwise it is the case that the As are hoovered up by the native speakers.*

I think this has already happened in some languages following the report, so it will be interesting to read a follow-up. Mathematically it doesn't wholly solve the problem as far as I can see - to do that fairly, you would have to set the grade boundaries after discounting the results achieved by native speakers. Obviously an impossible task!

It is indeed impossible!

I know lots of bilingual children who are growing up with at least one parent speaking the minority language. Their ability to speak and write this second language differs hugely!

The only kids you could possibly 'exclude' are those that spent at least a few years in another country as attended school there.

Pippils, technically not bilingual. True bilingualism implies having the same level on both languages, spoken, written and reading comprehension.

As such you need more than the parents usually you need proper schooling in both.

As such you need more than the parents usually you need proper schooling in both.

Yes, I agree.

In that case it would a little more straightforward to 'find' these true bilinguals as they will have lived and gone to school in the second language.

In other words they would have to declare that they lived and went to school in the other language's country.

Re: the proportion of Astar German A level passes awarded to semi-native speakers, I'd be astonished, TBH, if it was as low as 50%.

(1) There were 3,000 people who sat it in 2019, and 13% [so roughly 400] Astar passes (www.bstubbs.co.uk/a-lev.htm).

(2) There are about 300,000 German born people [some of whom will have married other Germans, some of whom won't] living in the UK(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germans_in_the_United_Kingdom)... so assuming that people live for say 90 years on average, there were in 2019 well over 3,000 18 yr olds who had at least one German born parent. Why wouldn't say 10% of those kids have managed to score an A in A level German?

A significant proportion of these are the children of British military who were based in Germany at the time of their birth.

I'd take issue with that slightly Groucho, as the mother of such a DC (German born to British military), given the reduction in the BAOR across the period.

@GrouchoMrx - yeah, it's really hard to get a firm handle on the precise number of German speaking 18 yr olds in the country, those numbers were only indicative, I suspect as you say that many of the German born people in the country are one or both of: (a) City/finance workers who are too young to have 18 yr old kids; and (b) people who don't in fact have a flawless command of German.

But the fact remains that there are a lot of Germans in the UK, a large enough number for it being fairly likely IMO that there 1,000 plus very fluent speakers... which is a large number in the context of only 400 A passes.

oops, A* passes.

.... sorry, v badly written final paragraph - i meant to say:

the fact remains that there are a lot of Germans in the UK, a large enough number for it being fairly likely IMO that there 1,000 plus very fluent h18 yr old speakers... which is a large number in the context of only 400 A passes.

In my DS A level German class of 8 in a London comp - the only one for miles which even offers German - 6 students had either lived in Germany for several years and/or had a German speaking parent. It wouldn’t have been apparent from names so the exam boards couldn’t know. No idea what grades they all got (last summer) although as a non German speaking household we were very pleased with his A grade. The difference from when I took A levels in the dark ages is that all essays - including ones on set texts - are written in German so this clearly gives an advantage to anyone with more language knowledge. In my day literature essays were written in English so there was less advantage to native speakers.

I agree wholeheartedly with fussychica Do you realise how much work goes into making a child truly bilingual and how hard they have to work? It's not just about being able to speak another language. I have spent a fortune on the English curriculum, books, teaching her English grammar.

They are also seriously disadvantaged at the English bit, from English applicants, have being brought up abroad.

My DD is in the same position as yours fussy and is excellent at languages, speaks French, Spanish and English plus the local dialect, Because she was raised surrounded by languages from one day old.

That should not be penalised. That should be rewarded. Many of my friends children have terrible English accents and grammar. Even though they have English parents.

Thanks Billie. Like you I was keen to ensure the level of English was up to standard so I paid for private tuition for a year and he took his GCSE as an independent candidate, achieving an A. I felt it necessary as the level of English taught at his Spanish state school was obviously aimed at MFL level rather than native speaker level. It was a good job he had the GCSE as it made applying for a PGCE simpler.
His marks for Spanish at ESO were quite average as he was being taught as a native speaker, which course he wasn't.

It's all a bit of a moot point regarding university as it was obvious from his name he wasn't Spanish but had Spanish school qualifications plus a couple of gcses.
I think he benefitted mainly because the Spanish curriculum at A level is far broader than in the UK, covering multiple subjects over 2 years, giving him a rounded education.

I think people are being naive if they think native speakers, and I mean truly native speakers, not those who have become fluent in another language which not their mother tongue, won't be studying language courses/modules at most universities in the UK. DS experienced this both at undergraduate and post grad level. Most universities want to fill their courses and with MFL in decline, aren't that worried where the money comes from.

The clue is in the name: m F l. Foreign!

A Levels contain a (large) language component and that is to test those students who are not born to it. It becomes a farce if people are already bilingual. When I took A Levels in the 1980s the worst competition you had to face was someone who'd been on the French exchange trip (unlike some of us who were not allowed ). And if you were good at the literature element you could lick anyone.

Yes, fussychica, that is good advice, I will make sure DD does the English GCSE, even though at a disadvantage, I am sure she will pass. I agree the International Bac is far harder and much more of an 'all rounder' then A levels are, it's why most public, fee paying schools in the UK are encouraging it now.

Nervous about ESO, it all seems so hard, with far more importance given to languages, Britain is seriously behind in this aspect. You generally need to speak 3 languages proficiently in Valencia, to pass ESO.

Either way, DD wants to do Maths, but I think the fact she is truly bilingual and properly so, should be officially noted, so thanks again about the tip of an English GCSE that I will enter her for it privately.

Agreed about Spanish state schools English! Tragic! 'A Cat Sat On A Mat' all the Brits in the U.K and DD are meanwhile learning about Philip Larkin (in DD's case, in a corner, on her own, with only me for help in the evening)

But everyone, judge away at the unfairness of it all, for expats! We are clearly out to beat the system If you all started at 1 day old, like me, your child would also be fluent FGS.

Irma, It's not the 1980's!

I went to an IB Spanish/Bilingual school. Best decision my parents ever made as I was truly bilingual from the start (half the lessons were in English and half in Spanish).

Lots of bilingual kids take 4 Alevels, sometimes the language outside of school. So they actually have MORE work than those taking only 3.

In my day literature essays were written in English so there was less advantage to native speakers

I did A level German in 1990 and all my exams were in German. No English essays.

In my dd's Alevel German exam there are both English and German essays.

Yes, I think until the 80s the literature essays tended to be in English.

Lots of interesting points about the difficulty of being truly bilingual. Still, for the non native speakers, I think there is a growing realisation amongst the students and perhaps as importantly their parents, that they may be disadvantaged - perhaps particularly in German if I've interpreted the ofqual report correctly.

Given that universities' offers for humanities degrees are often 3 As or even higher (and I don't think they lower the offer for an mfl A level), a monolingual student who is also good at humanities/arts/stem may reasonably enough decide to ditch the mfl options! (And the more students who ditch, the more the 'distorted boundaries' effect disadvantages the remaining non native speakers!) I'm not sure how widespread it is, but anecdotally I know of people who took this into account when choosing A levels - though whether it was the deciding factor you can never really know. I rather depressingly don't really see a solution - but it would be good if newspapers reporting on the decline of mfl mentioned this factor as well.