Elitism at Oxford

[piso]

I thought I would post this, not to put people off, but rather to make them aware that Oxford isn't the bastion of egalitarianism that it claims to now be.

My Dd is in her first year at a well known Oxford college. It is an old prestigious one, that has a reputation for being particular pro state school.

In her year group, there is a clear clique of London schoolers, think St Pauls and Westminster. They tend to bother with one another only. "Do you have a place in London?" "I'm from London, smugly the middle bit" "Oh you're so South Ken"

Then there are the old Eton boys, Radley boys etc who seem to also stick to one another.

Private dining societies are still a big thing in Oxford. Whilst apparently they are open to non private school kids, you have to be invited and considered suitable. Ergo, those who come from certain families, went to certain schools.

Favourite activities are skiing and horses. Where are you going skiing this vac? Oh you don't ski? "Our family have known each other forever, we always ski together at Klosters"

DD's neighbour for example is a third generation Oxonian. She proudly caresses her signet ring when talking down to others. She said in freshers week that she'd only consider dating someone from Eton, or Harrow if she had to as she wants a husband like her dad. This girl didn't even get the entry requirements for her course, but after some negotiation got in.

My point being, far from reverse snobbery, is that there still is clearly a large group of hugely entitled people at Oxford. Being born wealthy is certainly none of their faults (nor is it a problem!). DH is from the boarding school type of family, but there seems to be a high preponderance of rich, London type who are keen on being exclusionary.

Never have I been asked in a snobbish way where I went to school, but dd has numerous times, and not in an interested way; a way to see if you are suitable for friendship.

Some friendship groups at her college this year were very much decided based on appropriate background. You get a tick if you're from London. A tick if you went to a select few schools. A tick if your parents know of one another. Another tick if you have a lodge somewhere too.

How is your daughter coping? Mine is thinking of applying.

She is coping well. It is a lot of work, but she loves being able to study her course in such depth.

Ok that's good to know. Has she made other friends?

Yes she has made some nice friends, but she feels that a big part of college life is dominated by loud entitled people. They recently set up a Croquet club, which is meant to be a college wide club, but seems to be invite only. She overheard one of the girls boasting that she got invited because she has a croquet lawn at home.

What is your child thinking of applying for? You are more than welcome to dm me for any advice or questions :)

I. Elite this . Well, look what happened there. I was saying that I believe this and auto correct knew it already.

It was like that in the seventies and I think there was a period mid nineties to early naughties where equality ruled and pretence of working class abounded.

I hope your DD soon finds like-minded people, not everyone will be so stupid smug.

She thinking of applying for PPE. She knows its v competitive. She went to the open day aimed at state school girls.

Thanks for the offer btw. May dm you tonight.

piso would you mind saying what college she is at? DS is thinking of applying for maths

And your point is.......what exactly?

I’d file this under “do bears shit in the woods”. I’m not sure anyone would describe either Oxford or Cambridge (higher proportion of state school students btw) as “bastions of egalitarianism”.

I am really sad when I hear stories about Oxbridge elitism as I do think this creates a self-fulfilling prophecy. People hear stories like this so don’t apply and the elitism doesn’t change. Fortunately I think future applicants are more likely to be on TSR and YouTube where there are lots of posters breaking down the image of elitism at these institutions.

In defence of the cliques, there is a lot of evidence that it is human instinct to want to find people like yourself. People feel safe in a group where the others seem familiar - either because they went to the same school, share the same hobbies or have the same values. If you meet someone and your shared interests are skiing and polo or your new NDN went to school with your brother, you are likely to bond more quickly. Your DD’s psychological instinct will also be to find friends who are similar to her. I would focus on enjoying their friendship and not worrying about being part of other friendship groups.

I agree that sounds depressing.

I went to Cambridge, 15 years ago now, and my college was much, much more snobby than I'd been expecting. Not quite at this level, but I (from south of Nottingham) ended up banding together with a girl from Middlesborough as we were 'the Northern ones'. I remember feeling utterly confused, as my parents had brought me up to feel I'd been very fortunate, and I'd been to private secondary school, and there were a lot of students who were openly dismissive and saw me as disadvantaged. It just really shocked me. And yes, there were students who did the 'my dad and grandad were at this college, yah' bollocks, and yes, two of my course mates whose dads knew each other at college ended up getting married, and will undoubtedly sent their kids to fancy schools and try for 'the old college'.

But ... there's a limit to how much you can blame Oxbridge itself for this. I can certainly think of things that could be done differently, sure. But there's a lot that is down to students. Any group of 18-21 year olds is going to include people who, intentionally or more often not, end up being very insular and judgy, because they simply haven't been adults very long and haven't met all that many different people.

My brother went to a different Cambridge college in the same period, and his experience was entirely different. Unrecognisably so. He never knew where anyone had been to school because it was never mentioned, and nobody talked about where their parents worked or went to university either.

What I'm getting at, OP, is that I bet your DD can find some less rude fellow-students if she looks. They're probably getting just as fed up with this clique too. Come third year, she'll probably find that the same clique has disintegrated, and some of its members are quietly a bit ashamed of how twatty they sounded. And that's growing up.

I went to oxbridge and there were plenty of down to earth fun types who were not remotely interested in your school or parents. Decades later we still meet up.

It’s a question of bad luck and the college you choose. I’d go for colleges like New, Wadham, Keble, Worcester etc for more diversity of background.

My advice is: cast your net wide (attend lots of events, make friends out of college), drop the bad fish (pretentious types) back in the water, hold on to the nice ones!

Couldn’t agree more with the above - I’m a Cambridge graduate, grandfather a road digger. I’d like to think I judged my College mates on factors other than the school their parents chose to send them to and the size of their back lawn.

Part of growing up is to develop an ability to look beyond the trivial in forming judgments, to learn how to interact with a wide range of people from different backgrounds. It doesn’t sound like it unduly bothers the OP’s daughter who is enjoying her course, it seems odd it bothers the OP enough to start a conversation about it.

These “Oxbridge is not for the likes of us” attitudes absolutely prevent change.

I have to say: similarly op’s daughter shouldn’t write off any posh sounding horsey types who hang around with school friends. Maybe they are lovely and fun and friendly but haven’t had the opportunity or confidence to branch out?

Some people judged me because someone on my course stuck to me like glue in the first month - and SHE was a bit snobby.

Tell your daughter not to rule anyone out of the privilege of being her friend!

That is true Dust but I know what the OPs daughter means. When I arrived in Oxford the girl in the room opposite told me which (famous) boarding school she was from and asked where I went to school. When I told her the name of my Northern comp she literally turned away and never acknowledged my existence again, even when we were coming out of our rooms at the same time. There were only a small number like that but it was a very definite thing and it was quite clear that you did not meet the criteria to be worth noticing. I have looked several of them up just now out of curiosity and every single one that I could find is a banker!

That said the year was mainly made up of lovely people from all walks of life, including those from very wealthy backgrounds. Also, i don't think it's just an Oxford thing, friends at Bristol, Durham, St Andrew's etc all encountered people who stayed in snobby cliques too. It's just that in a small College year group that lasts throughout your course it is more obvious than in halls. I do think it is a problem that this kind of thing is only mentioned about Oxbridge, it does create a false impression. One of DD's (state educated) friends recently turned Oxford down because of the proportion of private school students. Amusingly, she is going to Bristol instead!

I agree Mia, I encountered a few of those myself! Some people aren’t worth the effort!

It is worth the effort though (not just in uni but throughout life) to be aware of making assumptions of people and closing your mind to the fact that brilliant lifelong friends can bridge class/money/background/ethnicity and might be out there in disguise! Albeit that lesson needs to be learnt by cliquey types far more than OP’s daughter!

Jesus Christ, too many exclamation marks

This seems a little unfair. When you first go away from home in an unfamiliar environment it makes perfect sense to try to find a link to people you may both know.

DD goes to an all girls Inde in London - they play sport against other all girls Indes (not just London). Her friends have brothers who go to all boys Indes. The boys bring friends back home and they girls get to know them. They have sisters who the girls have played sport with....and those 'touch points' go on and on. And they are all connected via Instagram.

When she first meets other young people and says 'what school did you go to?' it is NOT because she is being snobby. It is so she can say "Do you know so and so? I know his sister really well!! Blah blah blah". It's a conversation opener.

DD is initially quite shy (and then very bubbly), so if she doesn't know someone that the other person knows it's highly likely she will be stumped for something to say. UNLESS the other person is really friendly, outgoing and engages. If not she's likely to trundle off looking for someone she knows/knows someone she knows.

I can assure you she is not being snobby, elitist, northernist, or any other kind of ist. She is just being socially inept.

If you think Oxford is bad dont apply to Durham where one student I know claimed to be the only one without a landed estate.

Insecure young people will look for something that makes them feel more comfortable. Over time most will relax and make friends based on their course and shared interests. There will always be a few who continue to be obnoxious and maybe some universities attract more of that type than others. However there will also be plenty of people who have more sense.

Do you know so and so? Inadvertently sets a us and them message....

Not intentional I'm sure and it absolutely does.

When she first meets other young people and says 'what school did you go to?' it is NOT because she is being snobby. It is so she can say "Do you know so and so? I know his sister really well!! Blah blah blah". It's a conversation opener.

Which is fine if said when socialising with other privately educated teens from W/SW/N/whatever London.

But if she were to go away to uni as a fresher and ask it of other freshers at random, she would then, of course, sound appalling and ridiculous.

Because of course there are 4000+ secondary level schools in the UK.