Elitism at Oxford

[piso]

I thought I would post this, not to put people off, but rather to make them aware that Oxford isn't the bastion of egalitarianism that it claims to now be.

My Dd is in her first year at a well known Oxford college. It is an old prestigious one, that has a reputation for being particular pro state school.

In her year group, there is a clear clique of London schoolers, think St Pauls and Westminster. They tend to bother with one another only. "Do you have a place in London?" "I'm from London, smugly the middle bit" "Oh you're so South Ken"

Then there are the old Eton boys, Radley boys etc who seem to also stick to one another.

Private dining societies are still a big thing in Oxford. Whilst apparently they are open to non private school kids, you have to be invited and considered suitable. Ergo, those who come from certain families, went to certain schools.

Favourite activities are skiing and horses. Where are you going skiing this vac? Oh you don't ski? "Our family have known each other forever, we always ski together at Klosters"

DD's neighbour for example is a third generation Oxonian. She proudly caresses her signet ring when talking down to others. She said in freshers week that she'd only consider dating someone from Eton, or Harrow if she had to as she wants a husband like her dad. This girl didn't even get the entry requirements for her course, but after some negotiation got in.

My point being, far from reverse snobbery, is that there still is clearly a large group of hugely entitled people at Oxford. Being born wealthy is certainly none of their faults (nor is it a problem!). DH is from the boarding school type of family, but there seems to be a high preponderance of rich, London type who are keen on being exclusionary.

Never have I been asked in a snobbish way where I went to school, but dd has numerous times, and not in an interested way; a way to see if you are suitable for friendship.

Some friendship groups at her college this year were very much decided based on appropriate background. You get a tick if you're from London. A tick if you went to a select few schools. A tick if your parents know of one another. Another tick if you have a lodge somewhere too.

Yes, the headteacher at Stowe is complaining on behalf of the parents of marginal candidates. Apparently it’s similar to antisemitism

'Private school woe'!

piso tried to dm you but your settings are set to not accept.

There's this one in the Times, as well, though - which is kind of heart-warming (although one hopes it also includes a little chat on not coming over as more than a little patronising in the wording of the daily thank you notes:

Eton pupils given lessons in how to show gratitude

I read both articles. I was very at the anti- Semitism link!

To be fair, when I was at York (known for its higher proportion of state school entrants) no one asked me where I went to school. But I think this is more because they had decided I was common. The girl next to me -from Edinburgh was overheard by someone talking about St George's and a girl checked whether she meant St George's in Surrey or Sussex or somewhere. When she said ' no, Edinburgh' the girl genuinely did turn her back from her and continue to converse with a 'more suitable' person. I was really shocked. Mainly because I knew that st George's in Edinburgh is vair vair posh!

However, it was easy to avoid these people at York if you avoided Derwent. When I went for interview at Oxford, it is true that all the people who identified as less privileged and/or Northern and/or Scottish ended up - even on a two day stay- clustered together. I do think it is seeking your tribe; But I agree the actual privilege and social exclusion should not be minimised. I felt for two days like 'I knew my place'. That's not to say that I didn't want to go there and I am sure that this would have worn off as I found my place.

Private schools are full of highly accomplished show ponies as well as of students genuinely interested in academic pursuits. On paper they don’t always look very different but presumably at interview it is quite easy to sort between them.

My DD went to Oxford, and an older, more traditional college. She didn't apply but got pooled there, and loved it.

She met all sorts, some nice, some not so nice, but this didn't necessarily depend on background. She had friends from all over the UK, from the US, from China and India. Some skiied, some played polo, some played football, rugby, or rowed. As a pp said, you get twats everywhere, this is not exclusive to Oxford, you just need to ignore the people you dislike, and get on with making friends with people you do, there is, after all, plenty of choice within the 12,000 odd available.

The more I go back and read the OP, the more I am getting angry because it is CRAP. Yes, there are posh people, yes, there are rich people. But they aren't all nasty, and really there aren't all that many of them. As SilentSister observes, there are 12,000 students at Oxford and there aren't 12,000 stately homes in the country.

If there are "private dining clubs" then ds hasn't mentioned them and anyway is busy getting on with his course and his good friendships with a wide variety of people.

You know, when you notice a group - be it the school gate clique, or the toddler group clique, or the workplace drinking buddies - and endless bang on about how you hate them - it's funny that you are usually gasping to be admitted to their club. Strikes me it's the same with the OP's dd.

What an incredibly snide post @IrmaFayLear , and the reference to stately homes is most strange.

I went to a university that people who don’t get into oxbridge go to in great numbers . I remember lots of this actually, one boy in freshers week going round with a notebook asking people which school they went to.

We can all agree that he may have been a socially awkward 18 year old but it would be naive to think that that is all there is to it

I am sort of with IrmaFayLear.

There is another current post which refers to the cliquishness of international students, as if it is a given. Whilst a friends DD wound up at her insurance choice after a remark (1 UMS short of her firm offer and not in the offer subject either) right at the end of the accommodation queue to find herself in private student accommodation where all the others in her flat were at the new university rather than the RG one, and all from the local area. None had any interest in including her, they were all too busy hanging out with friends and enjoying being away from home.

Some people stick to the familiar, others branch out. The latter will gain more life skills and better networks.

Some people function in cliques/tribes that huddle together, seeking safety in familiarity and numbers. Some people like more personal space and variety. Obviously if you are of the latter type, you will find the former type a bit invasive when you get up close.

It almost seems as if some people may have managed to get to teen/adulthood without realising that the world is littered with social ghettos of different types, and these ghettos are not solely economically based. Thankfully there are also posters who approach life and other people as explorers who are free to choose where and who they want to be at/with.

Strangely not everyone that went to any particular school or knew each other from birth actually gets on. It's a huge huge blessing if you find someone you have liked from aged 2 and still do at 20, etc. Also the world is not like a pseudo-PC playground where everyone is forced to make friends and accept you in their games. Of course some groups are kinder or more tolerant, or probably more suited, however there is no evidence that these are more abundant outside Oxford.

The tutorial system is very supportive and is therefore more capable of taking on a number who may compensate in other ways for their dropped grades. The impact of this unfairness is arguably no more than letting those who made the grades in but who cannot somehow muster at worst an upper second. Merit (whatever that means) can do nothing that money cannot do faster, is probably the principle a lot of enthusiastic parents practise. Else why the selective schools, why the tutoring, all the other little enterprises that require expenditure of time (which is 'money') to gain advantage? Our general inability to judge outcomes unfailingly from early academic and cognitive tests will always mean the edges of any system are fuzzy, and susceptible to tinkering. Only people who cannot stomach the world being an uncertain place will find this intolerable. You don't have to like any of this, but to cry foul says more about you than the games played by most families who send to Oxford.

Very odd for a girl to wear a signet ring let alone caress it though. The caressing is super weird!

“there still is clearly a large group of hugely entitled people at Oxford.”

Wait til you find out what bears do in the woods- it’ll blow your mind!

Incidentally, what’s a girl doing wearing a signet ring?

Tutoring and other academic activities outside school are not always about “gaining advantage”. They can also be about pursuing interests to a standard and at a depth not provided for in the school system.

And your point is.......what exactly? I’d file this under “do bears shit in the woods”

I tend to agree.

I went to Cambridge and it was like this in the eighties. I made some fabulous rich friends and got some great holidays out of it. I went to a grammar and came from a broken home and a tiny house. Why on earth does she give a shit about the Croquet Club? Does she want to join if the answer is yes then she needs to give her head a wobble ?

maryso I agree with your bit about money and advantage. It sounds like Oxbridge are trying more this year to even that out from that Times article. Interestingly there were a few privately schooled children that went to our local state for sixth form. No one got past the interview stage though this year from the state school so that didn’t work out if it was a plan!

Croquet is fun though. It’s a bit nouveau to boast about your croquet lawn. Proper posh get good by playing a version with arcane family rules in the paddock......

Faz I think the point was that the OP’s Dc was surrounded by this clique, particularly in her living accommodation. That’s never fun, whichever type of clique it is.

Zanda OP says one neighbour (signet ring caressing girl) only, not that the DD is 'surrounded by' these students in her accommodation. It would be improbable that all the rich students were in one area or one staircase. Provided that the DD has friends of her own this neighbour and her group should be irrelevant.

Ahhh. There’s a family next to us who have turned their lawn into a croquet lawn. They discuss, very loudly, about tactics. And then shout ‘shot’ after every shot. Dds desk overlooks. Not going down well with revision.

...also proper wooden mallets hitting balls are loud!!!

Goodbye I don’t think it’s improbable at all. I know someone at Cambridge that was surrounded by v rich entitled people two years ago. Just the way their staircase and landing was. They felt very isolated and even though they went to a ‘minor’ private school they said the surrounding people were dismissive. Luck of the draw as with most halls of residence.

Zanda my own DC had to put up with the neighbours shouting 'inappropriate serve' while playing badminton most summers during the exam season. Fortunately they've departed but we still haven't figured out what an inappropriate serve is, exactly, just that the family seemed to do a lot of them (to the extent they rarely seemed to do an appropriate serve).