Oxbridge 2020

[GinWorksForMe]

Is it too early for an Oxbridge 2020 thread? I'm feeling in need of some hand holding through this process...

DS1 is going to apply to Cambridge for Maths. Doesn't know yet whether to name a college or put in an open application, so any tips gratefully received. We have visited two (very different) colleges and been to a Maths Open Day. It's unlikely we're going to have the opportunity to visit many more colleges as their open days seem to be on Saturdays and DS1 has a paid job Saturdays and Sundays.

Anyone else applying for Oxbridge for 2020 entry and want to share the journey?

It may surprise you Sticker but I understand the logistics too, living in a rural village with very, very limited public transport not a million miles from Cornwall. One very good reason why my DC only did a single Open Day each (to Oxford!).

Goodbye, you have given so much info in your posts over the years, that there is nothing left to be a surprise!

I'm not too worried about the info given Sticker. It was all quite deliberate, not written in error and it's clearly helped at least a small number of people so yes, I'm fine with it. I guess if you have a problem then maybe just skip any posts?

You do seem cross!

I am not sure if anyone answered the question about PPHs. These are permanent private halls (PPH) that we’re established mainly in the 19th century and used to be affiliated to Oxford and so awarded Oxford degrees but we’re not formally part of the university. They were originally set up for groups who were not allowed to be admitted to the university eg Catholic’s and non-conformists and so were often of a religious affiliation offering theology degrees. Some PPHs are now full colleges eg Mansfield but I am not sure that all others are. There is essentially no difference in the degree but the PPHs are smaller, usually offer a small range of courses (usually no science) and often don’t have accommodation for all years. Some applicants chose a PPH because they prefer the smaller more intimate experience or because of their religious character. They generally do have fewer applicants because they are less well known so do receive a number of open applicants and pooled candidates each year. However, open applicants can be sent to many different colleges, not just a PPH. Ultimately an offer from a PPH is still an offer from Oxford.

I do think that whilst we can sit and say able students will be able to look up the process easily etc and find it (which is true and let's face it kids are more tech savvy than many of their parents) that if they are schooled in any environment where Oxbridge applications are not the norm that although they can access the info easily enough were they to look for it, it may never even cross their minds that they should be looking for this information until way too late in the process.

Yes if they have a genuine interest they may have already engaged in super curricular. However in an environment where extra is being pushed rather than super they may not realise. So sometimes it is precisely the type of applicant who would ebenfit from UNIQ that misses out on the opportunity it would give them. As I said up thread Oxbridge do seem to be trying to get to students earlier and have started including some year 10/11 stuff in a hope (I assume) to let high achievers realise there is a route to be followed and to alert them to it earlier.

Goodbye - whilst I appreciate DD4 looked up and found her masterclass off her own back I suspect that possibly due to her siblings having been down that route she may have looked earlier than general applicants might have or been aware vaguely that there were such things (and I am in no way knocking her initiative in seeking it out). Also at her superselective which appears to have a hands off approach there will be other students discussing what masterclasses they are all attending, what open days etc. At a bog standard such conversations may not be the norm. So maybe a student at a regular school with an over invested mum (like me) may have spotted these on Mumsnet and helped guide the student, but there will be so many who will be saying the school will guide them, the school knows best which is, of course, simply not always the case and indeed there is unfortunately the "not for the likes of you brigade" still out there.

I know of and have heard of grammar school students who do access UNIQ because of their ACORN/POLAR postcodes.

Let's face it too many parents are still under the mistaken impression that if the student gets all As (or equivalent) for their gcses and are predicted all As for their A levels that they will automatically get into Oxbridge, which is clearly untrue. When they don't they simply can't believe that "Johnny" didn't get in. Who did then etc? I have seen it so many times in real life and on similar threads on Mumsnet.

I am sure as parents that we have all been told - well its ok for you your DS/DD will get in - when we (from either looking at stats or reading tales of applications on here) know that in most cases you have a 5 to 1 chance of a place even with stellar grades.

Some DCs get this and some don't. My own will be taking a punt - if you don't try you won't get an offer but also is very keen on his other non Oxbridge "top" choice and I suspect in a way would be more gutted to not get an offer from that uni than were he to fail to secure an Oxford offer due to the odds!

I suspect also that by the time I post this (as it seems quite long and has been subject to interruptions) that all my points will have already been made and in a more eloquent manner!

OKBobble thank you. You have said exactly what I have been frustratedly been trying to say all along.

Dancing - thanks for the answer re PPHs.

Also when I said "at a regular school with an over invested mum (like me)" I meant I was over invested rather than my DS is at a regular school because he isn't.

Having been the first in my family to go to university with parents with no experience of or interest in navigating the university application process, I do sympathise with those DCs coming from similar backgrounds and applying for Oxbridge. When my DS applied for university, he was heading for a Russell group which a I understood. When my DD applied to Oxford, even with a supportive school behind, whilst the information is out there, it took a long time to work through and understand the whole process. This is where MN can be so helpful!

Sticker no-one is saying life is easier for those at poor quality schools, least of all me, for the reasons explained above.

OKBobble it was a very minor point that DD$ sought out something for herself and yes, she's the last in a line of eight siblings so very, very different from her eldest sister's experience (it was just an Open Day, not a Masterclass. As I said, no-one here seems to do those).

And nothing personal or accusatory in your post either!

I'm not convinced Oxbridge offers are a lottery. Obviously there are more applicants qualified to be there than there are places but 'lottery' is pushing it a bit.

DD4 not DDdollars!

@Dancingdreamer I completely agree! As the mum of a child that went to a bog standard, underperforming, secondary school the process does seem quite alien and in truth a bit 'not for the likes of us'. She's now at a very good 6th form college for Alevels but I’d never even heard the word super-curricular until a few months ago, it’s all about the extra-curricular.

Fortunately DD did work experience linked to her chosen degree subject and is, as I suppose all applicants need to be, passionate about her subject and watches films, reads articles etc just out of interest. This may or may not be enough to demonstrate her love of the subject through her PS but DD is going to give it her best shot.

There is an Oxbridge coordinator at college, they usually have a cluster of a dozen or so students who get offers, that and MN wisdom I hope will guide us through 😀

Same here OKBobble. DD4 is very keen on her second choice too. That's a major help.

I do take your points, stick (even if this isn't apparent in my posts!) -** there are unfortunately many schools not giving correct, timely advice or even downright wrong advice. And - as with everything in education - having supportive parents or not must make a huge difference to many. I'm not sure either what the answer to that is, except to keep trying to demystify the process.

My DD had no thought of applying to Cambridge before the end of yr 12. The 'supracurrucular' activities she'd done were all because she had had a growing fascination with electronics and engineering since she was young. It doubtless did help her a lot that she went to a girls' grammar which was very supportive of all aspirations including STEM subjects - I wish that could be replicated elsewhere. But it wasn't 'do this because it will look good on your PS'. Maybe that's one of the massive differentiators between good and poor schools... learning for the sake of it rather than box ticking?

With that said, I can't believe Oxbridge admissions people aren't clever enough to understand this sort of factor. What may be impressive from one background may be ho hum from a privileged one. And my impression is that they really do want to change the profile of their students to a less privileged one.

The actual application process differed from her other choices only in the aptitude test (preparation for which was some A level revision in the summer and one sample paper), and the earlier date. All her other 4 choices also interviewed (though mostly more of a friendly chat than a grilling, TBF). (She had one completely useless 'practice interview'.)

Her attitude throughout was 'nothing ventured, nothing gained' - the one absolute certainty in the admissions process is that you don't get in if you don't apply.

"I'm not sure either what the answer to that is, except to keep trying to demystify the process."

Or it may be worth considering changing the process. My real question about it is, what's the evidence that the process selects the most able candidates (however 'most able' may be defined)? Obviously Oxbridge select incredibly able candidates! But I have never seen any research into whether they are selecting the most able - including those who are deterred from applying because of the application process (as opposed to those who don't apply because they want to go elsewhere).

My impression is that some other very high ranking universities do interview for stem - while for a lot of humanities subjects it's much more unusual (though I know some do!)

Repeating myself here I know, but there you are! It is an interesting debate anyway.

I'm not convinced Oxbridge offers are a lottery. Obviously there are more applicants qualified to be there than there are places but 'lottery' is pushing it a bit.

One of our DCs, who went to UCL and was surrounded by Oxbridge rejects, was somewhat amazed at the range of academic ability among those Oxbridge rejects. He did feel there were some incredibly able students at UCL who had little work to do there to fulfill requirements very brilliantly indeed and who could have done with a qualitatively different sort of university experience, fully focused on the life of the mind.

But I have never seen any research into whether they are selecting the most able

I'm not sure that is, or should be, the aim. We are fortunate in this country to have many other excellent universities. Perhaps all they should aim to do is to select a cross-section of applicants who they think will be suited to their course. So, they need sufficient academic potential and engagement with the subject, and some evidence that they will be suited to the tutorial/supervision system and workload/assessment methods.

DH, who used to do quite a bit of recruitment in industry, once pointed out to DD that when there's an excess of sufficiently qualified applicants, it actually isn't critical to the company that they perceive who is the absolutely best candidate, what is vital is to not get someone who won't be suited for whatever reason.

While that is doubtless true, Errol, I think some students who don’t get in to Oxbridge aren’t suited to the less intense experience at other universities. Our DC at UCL had a couple of friends leave after the first year and go to big name US universities, hoping for a more intense academic experience.

Hi Can I join in please? I have a DS thinking of either Oxford or Cambridge for either Maths or Engineering. We are planning on doing the open days and seeing what his predicted A levels are going to be before deciding.

DS hates formality so can anyone advise which colleges to look at that are less formal and also state school friendly please?

Totally agree with @stickerrocks - in fact, I have no idea what UNIQ is myself. I have one DS at Uni already - RG not Oxbridge - so I understand the UCAS pocess but not the Oxbridge process. I have advised other parents on uni applications who have even less idea than me as they did not go to Uni themselves and have no older children. I know parents whose kids are bright but have not even thought about open days yet let alone Oxbridge. The whole uni application process is time-consuming and expensive if you don't live near many and have to factor in overnight stays as well as transport. London people can proabably get to most unis and back in one day. If you live in North Wales or Cornwall this is simply not possible. In addition, Unis like Oxbridge have limited and very expensive accommodation options due to their tourist popularity.

Good point Erroll, Oxbridge do select incredibly able candidates who can cope with the course - so from that point of view, the system works. But from the student population's point of view, the application process may be deterring wider participation - again, I don't know the evidence!

If is deterring wp, then it is worth looking at whether it would be possible to modify the system. So, adopting the aim of selecting a cross-section of suitable candidates, rather than the very ablest, do Oxbridge need the current system to do that? Maybe yes, maybe not - would be interesting to know the evidence for it! eg I think that Imperial/LSE (I keep using the same examples I know!) similarly select students who can cope with their very demanding courses without the same process, in some subjects (not all).

I have a feeling the Oxbridge aptitude tests are quite new in some subjects - would be interesting to know why they were introduced. My impression was that it was to distinguish between all the very able candidates and get the 'best' (however defined), rather than to assess whether candidates met a 'minimum threshold' - but that is just my impression!

I guess at Cambridge, Kings is the traditional college touted for being extra State school friendly. Churchill is very science/engineering oriented and is modern in terms of architecture. It's a bit of a distance to the centre but it's very easily cyclable and it's away from the madding crowds!
www.applytocambridge.com/colleges/churchill

Don't just pick though on whether it's considered state school friendly, all of the colleges have a wide mix of people and dd says that apart from accents (and some have had much better access to sport in growing up) you can't tell who went where.

It's not a bad idea to visit both cities this summer if he's not been before, they have very different feels. Your ds can tell porters that he's a prospective candidate and have a reasonable look around many college.

That was to Spababe

spababe Oxford helps fund Open Day transport for those who need it and its own accommodation is free. I'm not sure what more they can reasonably do in terms of mitigating costs.

Yes of course some of us are in a more tricky position vis a vis travel to Open Days. In my case it's proved extremely welcome in the DC not having days off school in Y12 and seriously limiting inconvenience and costs. I don't know where this thing for attending multiple Open Days comes from. It seems a very flawed idea to spend Y12 flogging up and down and around the country.