A'Levels EPQ - Is it worth it?

[Shimy]

Those of you with dc who did or are doing an EPQ with their A'levels, would you say it was worth it in terms of offers they received in the end? I noticed quite a few universities on their websites saying they'll get a reduced offer by one grade if they get an A. It just made me wonder wether it was worth all that additional work. Dc1 has not done an EPQ but dc2 is the type that might rise to this kind of challenge. Of course there is benefit in just doing the work for the sense of achievement in itself but would like to hear peoples thoughts. Also what did your dc do their EPQ in?

My dd found the admin around her EPQ useful- a proper bibliography and planning and so on. It served her well in her first year at university. But maybe she was a bit backward.....

Completely out of my depth with Music Billie :)

Dd dud her EPQ in year 12. At the time she was pretty much Law focussed so did the efficacy of the jury system. By half way through year 12 she was very much in love with Psychology. She got an A star for her EPQ and has offers from all 5 universities but only one reduced her offer, Bath. However, it may have made the difference in the pile and she really enjoyed doing it.

but, I promise you, the students who get firsts when they graduate tend to be the ones who started by doing an epq
Perhaps some stats would be in order here before making such promises or universities are going to get a lot of disgruntled students. EPQ may chanel enthusiasm of some students in a focussed way plus create a slight advantage in helping formatting their first written pieces of work (does n’t take long to catch on though). However lots of ways to be enthused autonomously without it being a prescriptive qualification and many many very able students who never go near an EPQ including those from other countries but still manage to understand independent research and flourish at university.

Students coming in from other systems have had different educations. Overseas students sometimes really struggle with the expectations of a British university essay as they have had a completely different training in writing up research. I am NOT saying that you SHOULD do an epq because it gets you into university or directly helps you get a first. You are emphasising causation above correlation.

I am saying there is a distinct correlation between the student who has developed research skills and passion for their subject and genuinely enjoy sitting in an archive or a library doing deep primary research and those who get a first. In my subject area, doing the above is vital to produce an original research paper that has the potential to receive a first.

You do not have to have done an epq to do the above. Epqs didn’t exist in my day and I was still passionate about research, received a first and went on to a PhD. Doing an epq when you don’t care about the topic (or have been set it by the school), think it’s boring, and you are only doing it because your mum/dad/teacher/sister/uncle told you it would help you get in to university or help you get a first... won’t help you. You are also probably not the sort of student who has the right mindset to get a first in my subject.

However, the student who has relished doing their own research, producing a paper to a more university-style standard and has found a talent for independent research tends to be the same student who flourishes at university. They also have worked on the skills that will help them do better at university so they tend to hit the ground running and receive higher grades even in their first year (ie. causation), compared to the students who are talented and passionate but have only done A Level essays, which they then try to replicate at university and are devastated when their A Level essay structure, methods of using secondary material and ways of forming arguments produce a low 2:1 or 2:2, when at school it would have got them an A.

I ran some essay writing sessions last week with students and asked them how many of them had been taught a PEEL paragraph. Every single one had, apart from the Aussie and French students. Half the class were still relying on them and then wondering why they were criticised for having weak transitions between paragraphs. PEEL paragraphs produce poor essay structures at university, but tend to produce great GCSE and solid A Level essay structures, if you measure that by marks alone. The EPQ won’t correct this, but students tend to be more exploratory in their writing and less fixed to particular structures and models given to them to pass their A Levels.

One-third of marks available in our system is for how you write and present your essays. Students are marked down for incorrect bibliographies. We give students examples of how to write them, but those who are used to doing it are quicker/more accurate/realise the importance without having to lose marks a few times for improper citations.

As such, whilst epqs are no guarantee of receiving a first, we can see both correlation and causation between doing an epq and flourishing at university. There is correlation between doing an epq and being autonomous and passionate as a scholar - and causation in that the skills required for an epq are closer to those required for degree-Level essays, so students tend to be quicker to start getting good results, so are more confident, etc etc.

I am not saying that you have to do an epq to achieve at university. You could go to every writing class, pay attention to how journal articles are researched and presented, experiment with your own research and ways of writing, and go to discuss your feedback with your tutors after your assessments, and get the same outcome; my students who do all of that are also the ones who tend to get a High 2:1 or first. However, it’s often after receiving an initial grade that has disappointed them: those who are resilient crack on with fixing the issue, seek support and move on from A-Level writing methods; those who are less so tend to have an early wobble.

Nags since the EPQ has been mandatory at our selective school for around a decade until very recently you'd have thought the alumni would be notching up firsts like there's no tomorrow, on your theory. That hasn't happened although there are a good number of firsts of course, but there's clearly no correlation to having done the EPQ and equally clearly no correlation to those students who embraced it with gusto and those who thought it was a bloody bore. I really do think you're exaggerating the benefits massively and also the level and complexity of the writing required to get an A*.

student who has relished doing their own research, producing a paper to a more university-style standard and has found a talent for independent research tends to be the same student who flourishes at university.
That is a better way of putting it and not the same as Basically students who the students who get firsts when they graduate tend to be the ones who started by doing an epq (The above two sentences feels likes a test of propositional logic).

And yes as goodbystranger says, a good mark in an EPQ or even enjoying doing it to does not equate to the ability and inclination for the level of academia to achieve a first.

You're making a lot of generalisations about the 'type' of student who gets a first too Nags. When a school makes it mandatory to do an EPQ, as at our school, there can't by definition be any causation between the EPQ and autonomy or between the EPQ and impassioned scholarship. I can't really see how you can make these grand statements stick. If anything, I'd say that my DC did well at uni despite the ennui created by the EPQ not because of it.

Cross post with those of sendsummer.

@Goodbye - there you go - all students are made to do it at your school. So whilst the average / not very passionate students will have the right skills to get good 2:1s, you aren’t going to magic into them the love of learning and abiding curiosity of the scholar. Firsts are still pretty rare, although on the increase across the sector. A lot of students go to university for their job prospects and the life experience and not because they are really in love with their subject. That’s absolutely normal, but in my subject you need to produce an original thesis of neat

Not neat! Published too soon! I meant to say an original thesis that is working towards publishable quality.

I don't know which university you are at, Nagsnovalballs, but surely it is not transparent if you always prioritise a student with an EPQ over others. If the entry requirement is X + EPQ for your department, then you should say so. Jettisoning or downgrading applications because someone has not done one is a bit sneaky, really.

I had a look at the (A*) EPQs on display at open day and the thesis-type ones did not blow me away. Also, as with any work done at home, there's the strong possibility (probability) that someone else has had a stealthy hand in it...

Nags I have to say I think you're beginning to make contradictory statements.

At Oxford, my DC were told they needed to get 85% plus in their dissertation (four did dissertations and the medical one did a research paper) for it to be publishable. 85% plus is extreme at Oxford, on any measure.

IrmaFayLear DS1 did his EPQ on mad cow disease so I suppose there's a possibility I helped indirectly there, other than that - no chance. I didn't even read anyone's over actually (not great I know but hey).

Approaching publishable quality I said, not achieving it.

None of dds choices mentioned the epq as a entry requirement except Bath. Since her offers arrived two of the four have dropped her grade saying that they recognise a high grade in the epq as a positive. Maybe they are just saying that to get bums on seats but dd is delighted to have low offers.

I was waiting for that Nags! A very elastic concept then! So tell me, what mark - on an Oxbridge type level of marking - would you consider to be the bottom mark at which a dissertation would be 'working towards'?

Look, take what you want from what I have been saying. There seems to be some wilful misreading of what I am saying because it doesn’t fit with your experience. I’m telling you what I have experienced based on admissions, working extensively with undergraduates in a predominantly teaching role. You must realise that I can’t share our admissions data! It is also only one university and one subject. You don’t have to listen to me!

I’m merely pointing out what attributes a student requires to do well at university and that the epq is a good way to develop them. I never said the only way, or the best way. Some students (especially students from certain schools) have all the skills and attributes necessary when they arrive and some develop them when they get to university.

My point was that doing something for the love of subject and learning to research and write at degree level is a clear benefit. As I also said, being forced to do it won’t do that.

I don’t have an agenda here beyond wanting young people to realise that there are reasons beyond grades and jobs for studying something. I spend the majority of my teaching life helping students and my students even nominated me for a teaching prize because of the work I do running extra programmes in my own time to help them. My undergraduates’ experiences are central to my whole working life - and I am a first generation scholar so I know what a culture shock it can be arriving at an RG university. I am merely trying to share why an EPQ can have great value outside of mere points acquisition or ‘looking good’ on the admissions form.

Anyway, I’ve said my piece! You don’t have to follow my advice, nor do your children have to have done what I have suggested to do well. People find their own paths.

But do encourage your children to find a balance between what will help then be successful employee and what gets them excited about learning. So much of our education has become about functionality and not curiosity.

I supervise two students doing epq this year. They're both going to get a B, although I can't tell them that. Mainly because they were both quite stubborn and didn't want to take much guidance. They both said that they've found the process useful and feel it will be useful for uni essays etc. They both picked topics they were very interested in, one completely random, the other linked to their future career choice.

So much of our education has become about functionality and not curiosity.
Completely agree with you there Nags but the problem is that an EPQ as it becomes a routine substitution for a 4th AS level becomes more formulaic and a tick box exercise in how to achieve those top grades just like A levels. Therefore functionality once again wins over curiosity. The student sees it as yet another task to complete and the school in how to get points (with less teaching time).
I agree that there is a learning curve in focussed researching of a topic and producing more in depth essays and dissertations and the EPQ can accelerate that if done well and not done otherwise during a sixth form course. However those skills will be picked up pretty quickly in the first term at university.
IMO a free rein in reading or whatever interests the sixth form student may be a better use of the time it would take to produce an EPQ for developing curiosity and creativity although it does not get a qualification stamp.

sendsummer now that the EPQ isn't imposed on students at her school DD4 took the decision early on, having seen how formulaic the EPQ is, to spend the time freed up by ditching it to do even more reading around the subject she intends to apply for at uni. She thinks that much less focussed reading is going to be infinitely more beneficial in a) confirming her interest in the subject (not a subject taught at school) and b) in not boxing her knowledge into a narrow corner. Obviously she's already read a reasonable amount of stuff to spark the initial interest but given that time is limited, so inevitably will the additional reading be. Only so many hours in a day and lots of other things to fill it. So I completely agree. The EPQ has served state schools well in a time of financial constraint but that's probably its chief recommendation.

The thread has moved on vastly but just to add my two cents. Surely the reason why there is a strong correlation between students who did an EPQ and getting a first is because doing an EPQ is self selecting in the first place. Schools encourage students who are already highly achieving to do an EPQ, grammar schools make it compulsory, selective indies rave about it to students. Highly academic students naturally gravitate towards the challenge of doing an EPQ.

They do the EPQ in the first place because they are the type of conscientious student who enjoys research and spending hours pouring over detail, enjoys writing lots etc so it’s not surprising more of them go on to get a first at university. They get a first not because they did an EPQ but because they are particularly driven and have natural ability.

I know two young people personally who have done an EPQ before (tiny sample I know) one of them self taught herself astronomy and geography GCSE (didn’t attend any lessons) She had too many subjects so decided to learn them by herself whilst doing the recommended 10 at her school. She got A*s in both. Lo and behold jumped at the chance to do an EPQ. Now studying medicine. Is it any surprise if she gets a first? Is it because she did an EPQ? No! The second person is of similar profile.

I agree doing an EPQ teaches excellent skills that will certainly benefit them when they go to uni but an average student who struggling to juggle the work of 3 A’levels isn’t going to benefit from being forced to do an EPQ as well. They will be better off putting that time and effort into their key subjects.

@Nagsnovalballs

I have had a similar experience on several education threads recently to the point that I rarely post. I find if my views differ from those of some posters who are frequent posted on these boards then I am told I am obviously wrong.

Why not think of the EPQ as a way to structure the outside reading and as a useful by-product to get a few more UCAS points on the way? Also, regarding the admin, what career does not have laborious admin associated with it nowadays. Good preparation for life, I would say.