A'Levels EPQ - Is it worth it?

[Shimy]

Those of you with dc who did or are doing an EPQ with their A'levels, would you say it was worth it in terms of offers they received in the end? I noticed quite a few universities on their websites saying they'll get a reduced offer by one grade if they get an A. It just made me wonder wether it was worth all that additional work. Dc1 has not done an EPQ but dc2 is the type that might rise to this kind of challenge. Of course there is benefit in just doing the work for the sense of achievement in itself but would like to hear peoples thoughts. Also what did your dc do their EPQ in?

As an academic who is involved in admissions, I find this thread a bit depressing. It’s so grade-orientated and no focus on developing passions, independent scholarship and learning to develop and present your own research. So much giving up/not completing because of loss of interest or no ‘point’ because it doesn’t lead to material points advantage. Nothing about intellectual autonomy and a love of subject. No wonder the students we recruit (with 3 As down to 2 As and a B) fall apart when they get to university and no wonder anxiety is through the roof in young people.

I absolutely empathise with students giving up an epq if they have a change in circumstances (divorce, house/school move etc) or a decline in health - but, I promise you, the students who get firsts when they graduate tend to be the ones who started by doing an epq that got them really excited about research and honed the skills they really need to flourish at university. Getting grades and ucas entry points are just a way of getting in the door: you also need to have the right scholarly skills developed to succeed once you are there, and the current A Levels also not do that sufficiently well.

In terms of succeeding st university, DofE is of far less use to an undergraduate than an epq.

That's so encouraging nags

Dd actually found very little research in the area she wrote her epq on and is excited to get to uni and do more research. It's the first time I'd seen her enthused about something at A level and it gave university a new meaning to her. She's never been a hugely academic high flyer as she gets nervous in exams so the epq was perfect.

Excellent post nags.

Well hang on a sec Nags my own comment was that the whole structure of the EPQ is a tick box exercise which can prove really tedious to able students, nothing whatsoever to do with grades or lacking an interest or any of those things. The EPQ just happens to be a bit meh in its requirements.

Huh? How is writing a dissertation or extended essay ever meh? Surely it can be as 'clever as you like? How did your amazingly talented dcs ever cope at uni when they had to write essays?

I've never once claimed that my DC are amazingly talented Fazackerley so possibly no need for the snark.

Essays fine, no problem. All the self critique and explanation of how you produce the essay, not fine, tedious, problem.

No, I am saying they are amazingly talented as they all got firsts at Oxbridge apologies if I've got that wrong!

Yes that's ever so slightly wrong but that's fine!

@goodbyestranger Surely you can see the value in recording and then evaluating the process of their project? So that when they get to university they can repeat the things that helped them and avoid the mistakes they made? There's no "box ticking" - the production log requires clear and detailed explanations and reflections, which are personal to each individual student.

Is goodbyestranger saying that there is nothing at all exceptional about her perfectly ordinary, just like everyone else family again?

But the way the mark scheme is set out (for AQA) at least means that more able students can indeed complete their production log a lot quicker than their "dissertation style report" and by writing specifically to that criteria and ticking off each area it does become a tick box exercise in that respect.

DS is doing 3 essay based A levels so has had some "training" in how to structure, research, reference etc so the prisuction log side he does find meh. His topic has become an obsession almost.

I totally get that for perhaps less able students (awaits a complete roasting now) or students not doing essay based subjects an EPQ may be the first time they are upping their game essay wise and that analysis of how to manage their project is more valuable and of more interest to them.

Look, do we really have to make the epq and the enjoyment of it etc about able and less able students honestly

Bingo! I said I would get roasted!!

@OKBobble Writing an EPQ essay is significantly more challenging than writing essays for A level subjects, for which students are taught the content and how to structure it, & they do not need to include a reference section. They are also of course significantly shorter.

Writing A level essays will not leave them well prepared for university, particularly the first time they're first given an essay title and told to get on with it without any support!

Bert it's really just a quantity thing rather than quality which makes my family a bit out of the norm.

Fazackerley I think it's possible that the more able do find it a bit of a chore without adding much value, so in that sense the comment is fair. A lot of those taking Art can really enjoy the creativity involved but really go grr over the insistence on all the analysis. It's the same sort of thing with the EPQ, but more so.

If they find it a chore then they haven't picked the right subject. I'm struggling to see how supposedly 'able' students find writing an extended essay on the subject of your choice boring, and yet presumably are happy with A levels which are much more prescriptive. Yes the presentation and box ticking might seem boring but actually both are valuable skills - to learn to be self critical and to present in front of an audience (this might vary from school to school I don't know)

ANYWAY I think we've established it isn't essential, but I agree with pp that it may be becoming more relevant with the death of AS levels

DS does during the course of 2 humanities A levels with a well known exam board have to write referenced essays for coursework and also is expected by his school to enter yr 12 essay competitions which all expect referencing and bibliographies.

I really don't think anyone has said that any of the students have found the writing of the report on their chosen subject boring or a chore, merely that they found having to complete the production log a chore, probably necause it seems obvious to them the process they have taken. Personally I think it does focus their minds a bit on steps they have taken, decisions, changes and plans. It is a bit like a mathematician knowing the answer but having to show their workings which I am sure they find tedious too.

Either way I think it is useful for most who go on to uni but am.also aware that many schools use CREST or do their own form of research projects. It all adds to rheir experience.

DS2 completed an EPQ alongside 3 A Levels. At his Oxbridge interview the bulk of the time was spent discussing the subject matter of his EPQ (which was directly relevant to the subject he applied for) and I think that got him his offer.

Ds1 is in y13 and has done a level 3 BTEC in Business (no EPQ) There's lots of research and coursework which I think will help at uni.

It's not the essay bit or the presentation bit which mine say is tedious it's all the ancillary stuff about process. I think you're slightly bigging up the interesting bit and dumbing down the chore bit Fazackerley. It's fair to say that my DC may well have inherited my very low boredom threshold. They all seem to think it's very easy to get an A in but the A can't be especially highly rated by unis since it seems to be common knowledge that it's moreorless a given provided you do all the box ticking, and therefore fails to correlate with academic ability.

Yes I'm pretty sure mine had to do bibliographies for coursework too OkBobble.

What subject did your DS apply for Billie, out of interest?

I really like EPQs myself, as I think they encourage research skills. Those skills are really useful in a career, as are report writing skills, and not enough people have them. Also for some courses the EPQ can be skewed towards a subject the student hopes to study at university, which can be helpful for interviews.

goodbyestranger it's Music and his EPQ centred on a major composer.

goodbyestranger meant to add he absolutely LOVED doing his EPQ despite juggling a very heavy workload (he traveled to London every Saturday to attend a junior conservatoire so was out of the house 6:00-18:00 as we live outside London). It was almost his light relief!