Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Medicine 2019 - Part 2

683 replies

Monkey2001 · 24/02/2019 22:35

Oops, looks like none of noticed the old thread was full!

@HostessTrolley @Hoodiemum @4catsham @mamamedic @medicmom @mimiasovitch @Nightowlpossibly @ProfessorLayton1 @Tinkobell @Weaverspin @Itsthekissing @Sluj @Mumneedswine @Movingmountains

Apologies to any regulars I have missed

OP posts:
ProfessorLayton1 · 08/03/2019 22:32

Dd read The emperor of all maladies and The gene by Siddhartha Mukherjee - not sure if she mentioned any of the books in personal statement though..

Dr Atul Gwande's Reith lectures are good to listen as well.

Both of them have been on desert island discs as well..

mumsneedwine · 08/03/2019 23:29

Mine read nothing. Did watch a lot of Greys Anatomy (she's still waiting for a snog in a store cupboard). She did do an EPQ on cystic fibrosis research which gave her something to waffle about. And she chose Unis carefully - course structure and teaching style, dissection, early patient contact. Then from that short list she matched her UCAT and GCSEs to their selection criteria. Got 4 interviews and somehow 4 offers. She did no interview prep and was just her. Not sure what they saw but for a shy comp girl she did alright.

It's hurdle jumping getting in and there is a lot of luck. Too many wonderful kids and limited places.

Congratulations to all those with offers. And Monkey, a gap year can be fun and financially beneficial.

Tinkobell · 09/03/2019 13:54

@juggling.....I think one of the best things DD did was to keep notes after work experience. It meant in interview she could quickly cite lots of examples and good insight. Not brilliantly well read tbh, just the usual big reads Adam Kay etc and radio 4 Inside Health podcasts. She also practised questions with a fellow applicant and they brainstormed basic real world questions "what's universal credit" "how much is a pint of milk / loaf of bread" "whose health Sec and what do they do".....bloody good question that! 😂 As well as stuff about the uni and local area and people. Firs time interview nerve racking then she got into it and did enjoy most I think. Hope this helps. Try not to be overwhelmed by the seeming mountain ahead of you....take it in small steps. The thing that does need to be sorted early is the work experience though.

HarryTheSteppenwolf · 09/03/2019 17:46

"whose health Sec and what do they do".....bloody good question that! 😂

If I gave an honest answer to that I'd get sacked, so I have to hope never to be asked in an interview.

alreadytaken · 10/03/2019 08:05

Mine will be a junior doctor, finals permitting, this year. I still wish they'd chosen a different career with an employer who would value them. I havent read the city lawyer thread but I have relatives who are city lawyers and they are very well looked after by their firms. My child has non-medic friends being paid shedloads of money. It is a bit tough when the friends are visiting expensive restaurants/ going on luxury holidays and you are still relying on the generosity of parents (and that tends to be wearing thin after 6 years).

This last year is the only time when they have looked a little wistfully at those highly paid jobs as they will be staying in London and house prices are so silly. I have no doubt they would get a different well paid if they wished, there are people that recruit those with medical degrees, but they are staying with their choice.

This a BMA suggestion on books to read www.bma.org.uk/connecting-doctors/bmaspace/f/21/t/494 and I expect admission staff will become tired of those.

For something different watch However be prepared that most doctors still dont appreciate that the gut has a role in your immune system.

Welshmum2000 · 10/03/2019 11:41

DD is resitting A-level and has firmed Bristol. She decided better for her to resit then take up the biomedical sciences for this year as was also worried about the finances for graduate medicine.. was so hard for her seeing all her friends go off to uni , but she wanted to give this route another go and resit. So very proud of her . She has a part time job and has grown so much.. she has only ever wanted to be a doctor. Good luck to everyone with your journeys...

HarryTheSteppenwolf · 10/03/2019 14:48

most doctors still dont appreciate that the gut has a role in your immune system.

Strange, isn't it? To be honest, few doctors (apart from rheumatologists, respiratory physicians & dermatologists) know much about the immune system at all. And whenever we try to teach medical students more about it, current doctors keep saying they don't need to know. Most doctors (apart from gastroenterologists) also don't know that the gut has its own nervous system.

Tinkobell · 10/03/2019 15:03

@already....sorry to read of your DC's struggles. Was law v Medicine a close call for them? V different worlds, skills and personal calling.No one goes into medicine to be well off and yes London is expensive; live there. But law has its own struggles. A huge oversupply of grads, tough to land a job even with great degrees from Durham etc. AI is something they will hammer law jobs for a long time yet. V tough place for a working mum in law at a higher level I hear too. Always easy to see a grass is greener picture.

2B1Gmum · 11/03/2019 07:17

Welshmum2000 Good luck to your DD with resit, I think gap year planned or otherwise is a good thing and that extra maturity and proven determination will go a long way.

Interesting about the gut and immune system, great little u tube. I know lots of research is being done in this area including at UEA and there are modules in pharmacology for DD in year 2. All the more interesting as she has Coeliac Disease and an IGA deficiency. Both of which were discovered by a fab trainee GP who was so thorough and also very interested in what the test results proved. Without her DD May have been fobbed off with IBS, luckily referral and biopsy followed.

Not sure where this trainee studied but I believe she is back at GPs permanently and is very popular. Smile

swingofthings · 11/03/2019 10:49

I agree with Tinkobell. I can understand the shock of pupils becoming junior doctors and being exposed for the first time to the inadequacies of the health service and realising that being a doctor sadly means dealing with a lot of bureaucracy and issues that are little to do with medicine but surely the money issue is something they had anticipated?

DD and most of medicine applicants friends were aware going into it that they would be poor before just about making it long before they reached the point of potentially earning a good living. Most expressed a complete disinterest in getting into Medicine for the money. DD has made it clear that she aspired for a decent income that would mean being financially independent and able to afford a house, and a few luxuries but being able to dine in fine restaurants has never been something she aspired to.

I would have thought neither law nor medicine is the study of choice for earning much money in their 20s. Surely banking, some form of media or IT would be more the way to go?

Monkey2001 · 11/03/2019 12:20

City law firms pay megabucks, but you have to glve your soul to them. Working through the night on a corporate finance deal is financially rewarding, but no real satisfaction.

OP posts:
alreadytaken · 11/03/2019 12:59

I mentioned law because it came up earlier on the thread - and we have relatives in city law firms so know just how well they will treat staff if you are good at the job. They have friends in other jobs also being paid shedloads of money, at least one of those jobs recruits medics and its a job they could do well. They will not be applying.

Mine is not exactly struggling, since we fund them pretty generously, but naturally they want to keep in touch with their non-medical friends and to be able to do things with them. They could do more paid work now but they spend their free time doing activities that are related to medicine. They also know how to get money in medicine (choose specialty carefully and it's possible) but the more lucrative specialties dont appeal.

At 18 youngsters are idealistic, by the time they finish medical school they are becoming a bit more aware of reality. They'll have discovered the bureaucracy long before that.

Funding for graduate medicine is tough and getting a place hard enough that some graduates apply for the 5 year course. Resits are a better option for those narrowly missing an offer.

peteneras · 11/03/2019 13:01

It's quite alarming to learn of people coming into Medicine and whinge about the financial reward. Clearly it's the wrong profession for them.

2B1Gmum · 11/03/2019 13:29

Starting salary for DS friend in law firm £50000 ish (extremely bright and personable Cambridge grad), similar and higher on offer in city law firms and finance too at the top end, but plenty of finance/broking/banking nearer £25000 ish too. 1000 plus applicants per place at top firms! Media usually around £25000 from . Plenty of friends DCs with good degrees from top 10 Unis in less well paid jobs than that. Rents in London average £700 pcm plus bills, student loan repayment kicks in at £25 K. Lots of bright graduate DCs in my area living at home to save money.

I feel so sad for this generation particularly if London living is their goal and they don’t have family they can live with whilst they save.

For doctors Working for a London hospital has much to offer but being on call and needing to live nearby is so expensive.

A mother told me recently her daughter a newly qualified junior doctor took home under £10 an hour after tax, NI, medicine insurances etc. My neighbour pays her cleaner the same in cash. But I had better not go on a rant about paying people and tax avoidance. 🤔

peteneras · 11/03/2019 13:39

Alarming - because you may turn into this if it's money you're after.

Go somewhere else!

ProfessorLayton1 · 11/03/2019 14:31

2BG1mum- when we were in training , we used to say actually say that the cleaners in the ward get paid more than us and we are probably the least paid and least valued person in the hospital..but things are even worse now!
Very small percentage of doctors earn the amount of money like you describe in finance/ law firms.
You can't choose a speciality just so you can make money - you really need to enjoy it and be good at it!

Needmoresleep · 11/03/2019 14:59

Public sector pays less, and from experience that means that if you are in London you live quite a frugal lifestyle.

Yes London lawyers and bankers can earn a lot more, even new graduates. To some extent there is a trade off between money and job satisfaction. I would argue, from observation, that senior doctors in their fifties can have fantastic careers, whilst many bankers, from their early forties onwards are looking over their shoulders worrying about redundancy and their places being taken by a new generation. Plus after some hard graft in a London teaching hospital, many doctors with young families will choose to start applying for consultancy jobs in cheaper and perhaps more congenial parts of the country. Options not available to many city bankers and lawyers.

Those high salaries can be addictive and spending can be a substitute for job satisfaction. Though living in central London, we were never able to keep up, no weekly cleaner for us, nor anything but family hand me down cars, and cheap gite holidays. (And lots of good stuff, like free museums, last minute theatre tickets, brilliant parks etc.) Seeing people for whom the high earning days came to an abrupt halt, we don't regret our inability to live it large.

Alreadytaken, I wonder if this is a more acute problem for Oxbridge grads. London medics will be well practised in frugality, whilst I see no evidence of DDs non-medic friends aiming their sights on law or banking. Teaching or the civil service would seem more likely. Her friends don't seem particularly interested in either earning or spending a lot, plus outside Oxbridge/London it is harder to land this type of job.

2B1Gmum · 11/03/2019 16:34

I think it would be interesting if a national newspaper or maybe the bbc produced an accurate list showing pay after tax and other deductions of doctors, nurses, teachers and classroom assistants - it would make it more insightful if shown compare against domestic cleaners, and the amount a tree surgeon charges in my area! Even teenage babysitters are asking for more than classroom assistants get! Doctors know all this and so do most medicine applicants and in this country they don’t apply expecting to be rich. But I think the daily mail type headlines would have some people believe otherwise. When dd was applying I did feel comfort from the fact that there was a worthwhile job at the end .... I think she can still find one with pharmacology but not the same. It is both reassuring that your DCs aren’t applying for financial gain and sad that they will have student debt to add to their deductions. I must leave this thread alone now and continue to wish you all luck. Smile

Tinkobell · 11/03/2019 17:23

Well I'm just happy if my DD can be happy for the next 5/6 years and be confident of gainful employment at the end of it.....but perhaps my expectations for DD are markedly lower than those of others on the thread. I find it very sad to see grads of geography or biology for example who cannot get any kind of work related to their degree and end up in retail or something....just seems a waste.
My DH and I were top grad earners in London - back in the day! 😀 Sure we did have brill exotic holidays etc but it's always been the simple things in life that we loved the most - a bag of chips by the beach, walking the dog, having a laugh. I'm a strong believer that you come into this world with nothing and you leave with nothing. Medicine has tonnes of Happy niches amongst the mass misery, I'm sure!

Tinkobell · 11/03/2019 17:49

@2B1Gmum....any reason why your DS might not upsticks and work overseas? I agree, it's not the profession that's broken but this country and lack of reform that have given the profession a total beating. So why not go elsewhere for a while. If you're young, no kids, mortgage etc ...why not? London on a naff wage is bad place to be especially in the current climate.

Monkey2001 · 11/03/2019 18:03

Of course the solution for people who want to make money out of medicine is to be a dentist. All the ones I know work part time and send their children to private schools!

DS keen to work in the North of England where, as needmoresleep says, doctors can afford a nice house. A consultant friend of ours (DS's godfather) says of a career in medicine that you can always find a job - it may not be what you want or where you want it, but it won't be boring!

OP posts:
swingofthings · 11/03/2019 19:28

Doctors up North will most likely have a better lifestyle than in London/SE.
I would think the places to consider if money is a main goal are Dubai/Abu Dhabi and neighbouring new cities full of money and amazing hospitals. One large advantage of studying Medicine is the opportunities it offers: you can be a PT GP of you want to dedicate much time to your children. You can be a top surgeon or consultant in a tertiary centre, you can do private practice alone or alongside NHS work. You can go to developing countries or rich ones or you can even make a life on a cruise ship and work 3 months on and 3 months off!

Tinkobell · 11/03/2019 19:44

Would anyone happen to know what the contractual tie ins are for home grads of the NHS funded tuition year....? I've got it in my mind that in return for 1 year of NHS funded fees they have to work for the NHS for 5 years? If so, that's such a pants deal. £9k in return for 5 years tied to one employer....in business, nobody would ever take it. I wonder if a grad could opt out, so pay their own fee and have no tie in?
If so it might radically change the currently uncompetitive nature of the junior doctor market in this country, if people qualified and then buggered off overseas to work....govt would have to fund junior doctors better then. Probably tones of incorrect assumptions in everything I've just said...

Monkey2001 · 11/03/2019 21:05

It is not really a pants deal as the govt pays most of the £250k it costs to train a doctor!

OP posts:
mumsneedwine · 11/03/2019 21:10

And you can't really go anywhere for 2 years as have F1 & 2 to do. DD not been told about having to stay for 5 years but they are already thinking about accruing those points, even in year 1. Can't believe anyone goes into medicine for the money - it's a tough degree and they party hard because they work so so hard. DDs biggest tip is the colouring in anatomy book.

Swipe left for the next trending thread