Medicine 2019 - Part 2

[Monkey2001]

Oops, looks like none of noticed the old thread was full!

@HostessTrolley @Hoodiemum @4catsham @mamamedic @medicmom @mimiasovitch @Nightowlpossibly @ProfessorLayton1 @Tinkobell @Weaverspin @Itsthekissing @Sluj @Mumneedswine @Movingmountains

Apologies to any regulars I have missed

My F1 DS certainly works very, very hard and is in London with lots of his Oxford friends earning silly money of £100k+ but DS has never mentioned money nor asked for any supplements. I last asked him if he still reckoned he's in the right job a fortnight ago and his answer was an unambiguous yes. I do wonder alreadytaken, if your incredibly negative attitude throughout hasn't influenced your own DS and made him unhappy. Doctors won't be made redundant and won't ever be in dire staits - that security has to be worth something.

Surely they go into medicine to care. No other reason than the desire to make people better. Can't believe money ever comes into it. My DD has no desire to work in London - her Medical school hospital is a world leader in many fields and she quite fancies staying in that deanery. Has the added advantage of lovely countryside and cheaper housing. London is not the Mecca !! Just watched an amazing programme about Parkinson's research and that was all from Bristol.

Think my DD is well aware she will never have much money - but she'll have a career she loves and can be proud of.

Most of my colleagues live in modest house, don't drive flashy cars or go on exotic holidays..

Only a few earn megabucks but they do spend a lot of evenings and weekends doing private work even if this is detrimental to their health, family life etc., The life style is addictive and you work silly hours to fund it !!

Some of the really rich doctors I know have either good family inheritance or have other business adventure etc., Just look at 6 med UKCAT/ BMAT entrance course - run by medical students ! This sort of entrepreneurial ventures can make you earn lot of money!!

@Monkey....you are right in that if there was ever a course that offered true value for money from the fees, it is medicine. We all know it costs way more than the fees to produce a new doctor. But I was trying to make a rather frustrated point that if our newly fledged F1's were free to leave U.K. after graduation then maybe their wages might be somewhat better...because let's face it, striking and negotiating hasn't exactly worked has it. I like the funding, I like the principle of payback to to fair level, I dislike being held by the short and curlies beyond what's reasonable.

@prof ....the addictive lifestyle you describe can come about in any profession to be fair. That's just about fuelling and funding an aspired or acquired lifestyle.

Would anyone happen to know what the contractual tie ins are for home grads of the NHS funded tuition year....? I've got it in my mind that in return for 1 year of NHS funded fees they have to work for the NHS for 5 years?

No, this isn't the case. They have to do one year of foundation training to get full GMC registration, after which they can work in particular jobs or go overseas. They then have to complete a second year of foundation training to become eligible for secialist training programmes (medicine, surgery, psychiatry, emergency medicine, general practice, etc.). All this will take place within the NHS if they stay in the UK: I don't think doctors below consultant or fully qualified GP level will be employed by private providers.

When the current wave of expansion of medical school places was proposed, it was suggested that it should be paid for in part by students committing to work for the NHS for a minimum of 5 years after graduation or else repaying a proportion of the costs of their training (the Office for Students and the NHS between them pay about £33,000 to universities and about £70,000 to hospital trusts for the training of each medical student, compared to the £37,000 from the Student Loans Company that the graduate is liable to repay). The consultation on this did not reach an agreement on whether/how to implement it and then the government lit a fire under all plans, legislation, etc. for the foreseeable future by initiating EU exit, so nothing is likely to be agreed now until that has been sorted out.

If we leave the EU without a trade deal, or with one that makes the UK very much a third party, it's pretty much inconceivable that there will be an NHS by the time current applicants graduate, anyway. If we want to negotiate trade deals from our weak bargaining position we shall have to open up the healthcare system to competition from international private providers. The USA, in particular, will not agree to any trade deal that does not allow its healthcare companies unrestricted access to the UK market without "unfair" competition from state-funded institutions.

Good luck to everyone still waiting to hear about offers. And enjoy the offer days (mine never went as had mocks). Ace those exams and offer day will be a day of celebration (& IKEA). The world will always need doctors

A No from Birmingham here...not much chance to debrief as so much going on yesterday and she got up late this morning . She forward me the email however and I was quite impressed as it gave her scores of her performance and her ranking, she didnt miss out on offer cut off by much .But not sure thats a huge consolation.

Not sure how to feel about it all mostly because she felt this was her best interview performance ,but will just have to await news from the other 2 interviews.

Think we will have to talk through the "what if medicine doesnt happen this year" scenario. She quite liked the Newcastle Bio Science Applicant day and kind of surprised herself.. .applied there as they offer 7 places for medicine after first year, highly competitive though but nothing new there!

Mocks looming soon, possibly coinciding with outcome of other interviews .I am hopping she can focus on A levels and get THE grades that keep her options open whatever she decides to do.

Interesting reading the last few pages conversations guess not all jobs are rewarded equally when it comes to money and general appreciation etc etc..hats off to all those who still choose to go into medicine despite all the challenges because without them we would all be in dire straits!

Good luck to all still waiting or indeed having an interview...as my friends daughter has this week. Also for the mocks and all the studies and revision through these last few months and the run up to the exams.

needsmoresleep Oxbridge graduates are probably more likely to have several friends being paid a lot of money shortly after graduation. Other young medics may have more friends who are not well paid at this stage of their career. It may take longer for them to realise what they gave up and by that stage they may feel more tied in (but see the article at the end of this post).

Of course high earners dont have to spend all their salary and maybe face a drastic change in lifestyle later. Some join the FIRE movement (Financial independence, retire early) or just change career later once they have something in the bank. It's also possible to be a high earner in, say, drug development and still feel satisfaction in the type of work you do or put your inflated salary to good use. You might even be contributing more to society. (I imagine Bill Gates will feel pretty happy if he manages to put an end to malaria.)

There isnt a tie in for doctors to the NHS at the moment. Most doctors will be paying 9% of their increasingly poor salaries for life. That may not cover the cost of their training completely but they are also contributing to the NHS while in the later stages of their training. There are also more substantial pension contributions to pay now than in the past. Current consultants will have found it much easier to buy a house than future doctors, even doctors in lower housing cost areas. So an increasing number of doctors do decide to do something else or go somewhere else blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2019/01/25/why-are-so-many-doctors-quitting-the-nhs-its-time-to-ask-the-right-questions/

No from Birmingham for us as well. She missed her place by 2 points - so two offers and two rejections! She was ranked first in one of the stations! She has been remarkably resilient throughout this process and I am proud of her.
At least two of of our friend's DC have not got any offer - it is really tough as there is no real difference between these kids and my Dd and in fact, they were a lot more focused about their career choice unlike Dd..

At least she can focus on her A levels now and move on from waiting to hear from the universities..

Sorry to hear about Birmingham rejections, but ProfLayton, did she get her top choices? I guess the benefit of having friends without offers is that it makes you grateful for any offers you have.

4cats, hope DD is not feeling too despondent. DS feeling better about a gap year now, although we have not abandoned hope of waiting lists and clearing yet. I think Biomed is quite a risky route as grad medicine is so competitive, so we are definitely going for the year out if he does not get in - he would spend some time in London with family, working in a restaurant to grow up a bit and maybe volunteer in a hospital in India where we have contacts. If DD does go for Biomed, she might like to know that last year Newcastle accepted the UKCAT score they did for 2018 medicine entry for transfer into the 2019 course - so do not have to do that horrible exam again if she did well first time!

Yes she has her top choice so nothing is lost by Birmingham rejection at all.
Monkey2001 - your DS has the right attitude and is good to know that he is looking at all the options pragmatically.
Where is India is he heading to? If you don't mind me asking ...

Prof Layton..sorry to hear about Birmingham, but happy to hear 2 options available to your Dd. These certainly are interesting times and chances to learn quite a lot about themselves for all our DCs and us too. The range of cabable applicants makes for stiff competition and also I guess interview skills come into play...I am thinking of my Dd here.

Thanks Monkey ...Dd busy with a full day of school today followed by a trip to the gym and then lovely Biology tutor ..by then she may have processed how she feels,she certainly wasnt up for any conversation earlier. Newcastle very attractive as she loved it so much on open day ..the whole package ,uni people nightlife city etc so although her ukcat was a bit low to apply for Medicine ,Biomed kept the dream alive ..and on her UCAS form! Possibly would need to do ukcat because of current score anyway ..so depending on what happens with Leicester and Liverpool she may have to do it again anyway.🤐😢 Sounds like your DS has come up with a very good plan...thats great, he is definitely showing a huge amount of resilence through this whole process.

A gap year is certainly a huge opportunity to grow and learn so would definitely be on the cards,she has a job which could possibly accommode her with more hours potentially. Thinking as I write so may seem like I m jumping the gun a bit,
I am trying to get my head around the practical side of reappying next year, just because I want to be prepared just in case ..and this is potentially new territory. So if anyone has any advise on any of this situation I would be very grateful.Looking at PS...for example, Dd is still volunteering at local hospice so could use this again????(she likes the people)but would we have to discount other experience shes stopped but used on previous PS. I am aware some med schools dont use it but she still would have to write one🤨!

Obviously will need to check out whether her current med schools take reapplicants as Birmingham dont according to her rejection email.

Going to get back to my day as now Im getting sidetracked !😂

Sorry to hear about the Birmingham news :-(

Trying to remember who applied to where - it’s such a drawn out process. Mock exams finished here, mixed bag she felt, concert in London coming up then Sheffield in Saturday, although she’s still hoping for an offer from Nottingham to put as insurance

I'm really sorry to hear about the Birmingham 'nos' 4Cats & Prof. My DD is going to drop her Birmingham offer, she's not confident of getting the A star at all and just didn't fall in love with the place. She's doing offer visits to Sheffield and Notts. UEA did such a good open day first off, sees no need to return.
Side thing, just come back from dentists (numb face!) - she's from Sheffield. "Is Dentistry where the cash is?" I asked. "nobody should go into it for money" she said "if I had my time again, I'd do A&E medicine because I love the diagnosis".....so there you go. One persons opinion I know, but so easy to assume the grass is greener.

ProLayton it is in Visakhapatnam, Andhra Pradesh.

Don't know Vishakapatnam at all, good luck to your DS if he decides to go there...

I said I would leave you alone but it appears a relative is looking at applying for 2020 entry. I have mixed feelings having seen DD fail at last hurdle (results day). DD had similar better GSCEs overall and I am interested in opinions about applicants who got B in English GSCE as this is the case for relative. I know most medicals schools use the word minimum - but from last years thread and this, which are worth a shot if not all A but a few Bs in the GSCE grades, including English? I know there are few that are looking for 7 A equivalent or higher to get to interview as part of the process, but wasn't sure how things are looking with new exams etc.

Tinkobell, DD had offer from UEA and it was her first choice, she is there now doing pharmacology instead, very happy with UEA. I have a soft spot for UEA because I spent 7 of my teenage years living in Norwich. It is a great city for students, a bus ride from the campus. The campus gets a mixed response because of its brutalist architecture:) Socially DD has found even with 20 plus contact hours and lots of extra work (which medics will obviously find and more so I ?); she does get to socialise at SU nights etc. and has started playing badminton again, which has provided another group of new friends; flatmates all on different courses which I think is fun too. She is only coming home for 6 days over Easter because she wants to stay and study .... which to me is proof of her 1. enjoying UEA but 2. taking the workload seriously (harsh lesson learnt from maybe not quite doing that extra bit needed for A levels). Also you can more or less walk to the hospital from UEA campus and they bus them out for others and GPs etc. DS1 did engineering at Nottingham, another lovely campus and hospital nearby too, they did a good sales pitch for engineering and am sure they will for medicine. Little things can make all the difference in the end, ease of journey home and affordability, but more importantly course content and linked hospitals further on in the course, need for a car etc.? Things to think about when in the lucky position of choices.

DD at Nottingham if can help at all. At GPs today and says dissection is so helpful with anatomy. Easy walk to hospital/med school across beautiful campus (they are the same place - one of her reasons for choosing it), and placements travel is paid for. Free Hopper buses for days she's feeling lazy/hungover. But I loved UEA (she didn't like Norwich). Good luck to those still waiting and especially if still doing interviews.

2B1Gmum - my DS had a B in English language and C in French with the rest all As and A*s - he got 3/4 offers from Sheffield (where he is at), Bristol and Liverpool. He didn’t apply to ones that wanted minimum A in English (like Birmingham). He may have been helped by top decile UKCat score though. I think it doesn’t matter as long as you apply smartly. Glad your DD is enjoying UEA and pharmacology.

Prof Layton- Sorry about the Birmingham rejection, but glad your DD has her first choice if I remember correctly she has a UCL offer? Is that her top choice? it's also
Good she can move on from the interviews now. We are still waiting for the outcome of DD s interview at UCL.

4cats- Sorry to hear about Birmingham for you too. Hope your DD gets better news from her other two interviews. Good luck.

Night owl - UCL is her top choice. She has some of her best friends going to UCL to do economics, natural sciences and medicine. So really looking forward to it - although she says she wants to have some new friends and have had enough of them as they have all known each other since primary school. I am happy as she will have some reliable people when she moves to London and it helps couple of them are 6foot plus heavily built boys - like her personal bodyguard !! she says that she will be the one who will have to look after them !!

To be honest, I was a bit disappointed with Birmingham- the way they conducted their MMI and literally how they made the children wait for couple of hours before their MMI stations.. she did say that she did not enjoy the whole experience but for lot of children I know Birmingham was their top choice!

She took her rejections in her stride and she was not fazed by the whole process!

Well, I have learnt so much during this whole process and must admit, did not realise how competitive getting into Medicine is ..

Youngest Dd ( 10) having seen the whole process says that she won't apply for medicine- deja vu. She wants to be a baker, dog walker and English teacher - at least I don't have to go through this for good few years now- what a roller coaster ride !
Good luck to your Dd night owl - UCL gets back with their decision in less than three weeks, fingers crossed!

Hi all. Good luck to everyone still waiting for news, and to those preparing next year's plan of attack.

The money thing is an interesting discussion. All depends on your own situation, I guess. I was Oxbridge, and have a lot of very wealthy lawyer/banker/accountant friends (they go on holidays I couldn't dream of joining them on, but they also love camping, and aren't into ridiculously expensive meals out, so not really a problem). Also lots of 'normal' friends who make my salary look normal and a doctor's look very attractive a few years in, even taking the hours into account. In comparison with many other careers, it's really pretty good - hardly choosing to be poor.

DD asked St Andrews about deferring, and it was a very firm no. She's refusing to consider Sheffield, which I think is a shame. Would love to persuade her to visit on Saturday, but she's seen it in late November rain and thinks she's seen enough. Please could anyone who's a fan explain what they liked about it?

hoodiemum that is quite funny as one of the stations was why you want to study in Sheffield and what is great about the course so she must have had a good answer - that was the one DS failed even though it was his top choice after Cambridge!

Peak district, full body dissection, fantastic student city - I think they have the highest number of graduates staying on after graduation. Affordable, lively. Friend's DD said that the pastoral support was great when she nearly dropped out.

We’re going to the Sheffield open day on Saturday and staying in uni accommodation on Friday night. At the moment it would be D’s insurance although she’s waiting to hear back post interview from two unis.

Her thing is that she loves the course/school at Sheffield and the people that she’s had contact with, but preferred the town and environment at her other choices which is a shame. I’m partly hoping that spending a bit more time there would give her a more rounded picture than just the open day where the med school was great but not the rest - for example we walked to the sports centre but there wasn’t really anything organised for the open day other than talking to reception staff who were busy and couldn’t answer some of her questions. She felt that the uni outside of the med school wasn’t the most engaging. She feels very lucky to have two offers, and knows that wherever she went she’d settle, but in reality if she got an offer elsewhere then she’d probably not put Sheffield as insurance.