Advice for a wannabe city lawyer?

[goldberg]

Hello. New here and have a question regarding becoming a lawyer. I read the Oxbridge application thread with interest so think here is a good place to ask.
Dd is in her first year at Oxford studying history and english.
She has some experience at some chambers and a law firm in london, as well as at home in Bristol.

She obviously has good GCSEs and decent A levels to get into Oxford. I’ve read that most vacation schemes are for second years onwards non-law.

There are about half a dozen schemes that are open to first year non law, but these aren’t vacation schemes. They’re 2 days-1 week. She has applied to them, and put effort into the application and had someone read them who does law at LSE. She has always gotten through the first round to be asked to take a test, she has passed three of these tests.

One then decided they weren’t taking things further and rejected her, but her score was above pass mark but not that high. Probably her paper application wasn’t good.

Another she took the test for and hasn’t heard anything back in 2 weeks whilst others got interviews. So she is taking that one as no.

It’s a similar story for another, and the others are yet to be reviewed by the law firms.

Is there any way she can improve her chances? She has used the career service and done lots and lots of practice tests, but they don’t really seem to improve her score that much.

She is part of law society too, and has been and even given a speech at an event so has lots of contacts on linkedin etc.

Does anyone have any advice how she can progress? She understands that she is just in first year, but it’s already very disheartening for her, as I am sure it is for others too.

Transactional work is the worst. It’s quite boring, hours are terrible and you spend your life being pushed around by corporate financiers who earn multiples of what you do. It sucks

As a non law student she’s applying too early. She would apply for vacation schemes or training contracts in her final year. Second year applications are law students only.

She might also want to focus her work experience. If she wants to go down the solicitor route she probably needs to tip the balance of her work exp away from the chambers experience and into solicitors firms.

Around 50% of barristers didn’t study law at undergrad level and I think it’s similar for city lawyers. Other academic disciplines offer a slightly different perspective on life and it’s not necessary to decide what you want to be when you are 17. It’s possible to grow into the career and it’s fine if your DD does that. She may well be asked “why not law” at interviews so have the answer ready. The usual is to say you wished to pursue other studies and you would have had huge regrets if this had not been possible. It’s ok to take time to decide what you want to do. Employers do not employ 100% law grads!

The truth is that not everyone sees it as bad. We have friends who are city lawyers and they enjoy it. Never think that being a merchant banker or city banker is light work. It is not! DD has a friend who works for a very upmarket merchant bank and he works extremely hard. There isn’t an easy ride. This is why it is important to do what you enjoy and choose a branch of law you enjoy. You will be spending a long time doing it so you need to be motivated.

And you are how old, TF? Times have changed somewhat, although not totally of course. DD is patronised quite a lot. Old, male and stale are still around! But aren’t they everywhere?

Hate to be the obvious one to ask this, if she wants a straight path to being a lawyer... why not study a law degree? I'm currently studying mine and at least it's a sure path to a legal career over English/history? I understand having the English and history opens a wider range of careers if she decides she hates being a lawyer but surely it makes more sense to study Law?

I worked in the city after doing law at Oxford. I didn't do vac schemes in the first year. I have moved to the public sector now, have flexibility over my hours and love it, but the city paid for my training and repaying my student loan, I don't regret it.

Ps I only spent two years in the city though - and six months of that was actually abroad.

Law is a great field and paves the way for many careers. I trained in the city, which I would recommend for the cv, but soon went in house. Great variety of work, team spirit and more commercial than private practice. Six figure salary and benefits.

You do work hard but it’s rewarding. I’m now mid forties and looking to step back, but now I have options.

It is competitive but if you are Oxford you at least have a tick in the box which most wont.

Another ex city lawyer - echoing the DONT DO IT, comments. It’s horrendously hard work and city law is pretty tedious too. It’s also still a mans world and the attrition rate is absolutely huge. At one of my previous firms (mc) two of my colleagues killed them selves. As others have said, with an Oxford education there are much easier ways to make money.

Also @ sweetpeach sadly a random Oxford degree is likely a more sure fire way to becoming a lawyer (especially a city lawyer) than a law degree from a less prestigious university. The vast majority of LLB graduates will never get traineeships and will never practice as lawyers. Imo it’s very unfair to take their money for degrees that are often worthless and can even harm your career prospects (can’t get a traineeship and other jobs won’t hire you as they think you will just leave as soon as you get a law job).

@zsazsajuju I guess you're right, an oxford degree looks great. You do learn a lot though in the degree, I just don't get how someone who hasn't exclusively studied law for an extended period of time could be a lawyer if you know what I mean?
I'm in a top 10 UK law school though and doing well so fingers crossed!

Another coming on to say don't do it. Do something more intellectually stimulating or more financially rewarding for the ridiculous hours. It was shit for women ten years ago, and I imagine it's changed not a jot since then.

I remember when I left my magic circle firm, one of the partners told me (with genuine kind concern) that I'd never find a more intellectually stimulating job. I nearly laughed out loud before realising he wasn't joking. The work I'd done pre-city law firm was so much more challenging and intellectually engaging, and so was all the work I've done subsequently. I think they just tell themselves that to get through the (very long) day

Encourage her to look at regional firms too. Or to at least consider training in the City and then moving. I’m a senior associate at a regional firm, I have two very small children and work PT in a role which is 75% transactional.

The upside is that the size of my firm means I have a high degree of autonomy, lots of contact with clients and I get to to the interesting nitty gritty of the transaction and negotiations, but I don’t have to do all the grunt work. The downside of the size is that if I’m on a non-work day and something needs doing there isn’t really anyone else. It’s not worth handing over negotiations to a colleague for 24 hours. For actual completions or longer holidays it’s not a problem to do so.

Sadly I’ve found that you can spot the non city lawyer/small law focussed person by the question of why don’t they study law It is valid though! At the end of the day the GDL has all the modules you need. Plus, in the US you cannot study law undergrad

So what can the OP’s daughter feasibly do?

I roughly number crunched for the people I remember from my Cambridge Classics degree and came up with roughly seventh thirty city works or postgrad

There are intellectually stimulating legal careers - but not in transactional work I don’t think. And that’s really the raison d’etre for city law firms let’s face it.

What about the bar? Is that any better?

Don’t do publicly funded work if you like eating having a home wearing clothes etc. Money’s shite (when you get paid)

I really don't think lack of a law degree is a problem. I trained back in the Dark Ages, and haven't been in private practice for 15 years, but an old and dear friend is now responsible for trainee recruitment in my old firm, and they recruit about 50-50 lawyers to non-lawyers. I did the GDL and LPC, sponsored by my firm, and stayed for a couple of years PQE doing private client trust and tax work. You really don't have to spend your thirties weeping in a data room: by the time I was 30 I was working in a really interesting Civil Service job, and DD was born when I was thirty-five - six months' maternity leave on full pay, and back to work on a compressed hours deal. These days I run a legal team in the third sector, dealing with some really interesting and stimulating questions. I'd encourage DD if she wanted to be a lawyer in due course, though I might encourage her to go to the Bar rather than a firm of solicitors.

I don't know how feasible my career path would be for a young graduate now, but I put in four (moderately miserable but not terrible) years at a City law firm and I've been incredibly happy, interested and fulfilled in my legal career ever since. Everyone talks as though signing up for a City law firm is signing your whole life away: it really isn't, and it gives you a lot of options. I was never sexually harassed either, although it probably helped that even when I was young I wasn't pretty.

Doing a Law degree is a faster route but it’s not necessarily the best route for everyone. Thd GDL is a quick conversion course and it suits bright people who don’t need the depth of a law degree. They also might have other talents from university and life that are of use to recruiters.

The top city recruiters still take grads from a tiny minority of universities because this is where the majority of the talent they want goes to university. Law grads compete with lots of other solid academic degree holders for law careers and even top 10 won’t guarantee anything. Non law grads have multiple skills and that works for employers.

The Bar is a possibility. Around 450 pupillages a year are available. Around 1400 qualify via the BPTC every year and you compete against all the people who apply year after year because they haven’t got anywhere. It’s highly competitive but Oxbridge grads are around 40% so it’s a possibility. Be sure it’s what you want though. It’s equally tough!

Whilst I have said being a city lawyer is a terrible idea, I do agree that doing a law degree really isn't necessary to get a training contract as an Oxbridge graduate. Good candidates will have a TC lined up at graduation and their prospective firms will fund the GDL (and LPC). At my old firm c. half of the trainee intake were non law grads.

Someone needs to bring this thread to the attention of the magi circle’s HR heads - or more to the point their partners

OP, City lawyer involved in recruiting trainees here. Your dd should not worry too much about vacation schemes in her first year, particularly as you say she already has had experience at chambers and a London law firm. If your dd is determined to become a lawyer she should focus her efforts on securing a training contract in her second year.

Work experience in a law firm is hard to obtain and often very talented students miss out. I have interviewed plenty of students who have worked in retail, care homes, bars and restaurants and most develop confidence, teamwork, professionalism and other transferable skills.