Won't get the grades for Medicine: now what?

[ChesterBelloc]

Hi all,

My DD is in Y12, taking A-levels in Biology, Chemistry & Physics. She has dyslexia, and got 3As/7s, 3Bs/6s and 3x5s at GCSE. She has been stuck on Medicine (and becoming a neurosurgeon) for years, but after half-term we are having a meeting with her and her teachers during which I fully expect to hear that her predicted A-level grades will be 3 Bs max.

I, and her teachers, have been hinting for a while now that she may will not get the grades necessary to have even a chance of getting into Med School; she, however, is quietly stubborn and refuses to accept that hard work (and she is a very hard worker) will - sadly - not be enough to get her there.

Can anyone help me with ideas for alternative Med/Science-related degrees that she might be better off aiming for with Bs at A-level? There seem to be hundreds of possibilities, and I don't know where to start.

(FYI She got a 5 for GCSE maths, has already re-sat it once but came out with the same grade. I think she wants to try it again...)

TIA.

Biomedical science, Medical Microbiology, Medical Genetics, Medical Biochemistry are all degree options that might float her boat. All also ( I think) valid routes into the fast track medicine degree. Nothing wrong with straight up biological sciences either but something with 'medical' in the title might be more attractive to her?

To be blunt, it's the maths that is going to let her down for any science based degree, let alone be enough to pass a BMAT or equivalent.

Med schools are looking for a few things: excellent GCSE results (sadly she doesn't have those, they normally want at least half a dozen 8s); a great BMAT or UCAT (new UKCAT) score (the maths In that is tough, really tough); great predicted A level grades; a personal statement that shows passion; varied work experience.

Get to the bottom of the maths before she tries for any science degree, so she can find a suitable course that she will thrive and not struggle in.

There are loads of excellent suggested alternatives, as people have said. I'd add audiology in there. It's a growing field.

Agree with PPs that her not enjoying the human relationship side is a pretty key bit of information for what she may derive the most career satisfaction from. Independently of her grades you can certainly put her off being a surgeon particularly a neurosurgeon since so much interaction with patients and their families is required.

What does she most have ambition for, operating or making an impact in neuroscience for patients?

If she wants to operate more than she is interested in neurology then she will need to spend a lot of time with people to get there whether she does it via medical or nursing training.
If she is most interested in making an impact in neuropathology then neuroradiology including functional imaging would be worth considering. This video could be helpful in giving her an idea of the future potential of this.
www.kcl.ac.uk/study/postgraduate/taught-courses/neuroimaging-msc.aspx

I suggest start with good biology/biochem for undergrad & then decide what to do.

I wanted to suggest Surgical Care Practitioner, but it's a people-person job like all the other clinical roles suggested here. Needs yrs of study & training. They want applicants with years of experience as nurses and midwives or similar.

London Med Schools are especially hard to get into. Competing with the whole world who wants to study in London.

I just read Henry Marsh's book (Do No Harm, HM was a brain surgeon). It's All About People. Not merely brains. He keeps drumming into his team that they have to understand the patient as a person in order to provide good care.

Foundation yr is mostly for very sharp kids who went to poor schools. So the idea is they have potential but not had opportunity to shine.

If she's not a people person, and finds empathy tough, medicine is absolutely not for her.

You are constantly interacting with people in any medical job, or any Allied Health Professional Job (nursing, midwifery, paramedic etc.) So the general public, but also your colleagues, as medicine is really a 'teamwork' career. In Neurosurgery for example., there will often be 10+ people in there when someone had brain surgery, even if you are operating. And a high level of empathy and communication is needed for the colleague interaction, discussing the situation with the anaesthetist, working with the ODP etc. If you find working with people a struggle, it will eb unbearable when you are stuck in . chaotic A&E at 4am on a Saturday, trying to get a cannula in someone drunk and abusive while your bleep goes off every minute, you haven't eaten for 10 hours, and it's your 7th consecutive shift out of 12. It's a hard job, and you have to really love it to cope. The only thing that has got me through at times is that there is nothing else I'd rather do, and I like working with people.

I'd have a chat with her about why she wants to go into medicine, honestly. Is it because it's got a high status and is seen as 'success'? IS it the money? Is it because she finds medicine interesting?

Sounds like she's got a really drive to succeed, which will take her far. What jobs could you see her in? Does she like animals, for example, and veterinary work might be a better fit?

Biomedical science is a good degree to do and was always the one you had to put as a back up choice on ucas but that may have changed. I know people who have done biomedical science then converted to medicine. Others work in labs there’s many opportunities available with this degree.
Paramedic, pharmacist, nurse, physiotherapist all have potential to do significant career progression but need good people skills.
I have a science degree ( not medicine related) and I got an A in GCSE maths and I struggled with the statistics component of my degree, I did pass the modules first time but it was very difficult.

I would forget dental careers too, the most important attribute is communication skills and empathy.

I did Biochemistry in a class of 22, every single person, except me, was a failed medic. They all did okay.
My niece wanted to do medicine but ended up doing physiotherapy, she’s very happy.

I really appreciate the time people have taken to post on this thread.

FWIW, I totally agree that her personality/temperament are not suited to straight Med/Dental; she's interested in the technical side of it rather than the people underneath, and I don't think she realises quite how much time is spent on the people themselves rather than their bodies/brains.

I agree that she's more suited to a lab/research environment, so I will make further enquiries in those directions.

(She did originally want to be a vet, but I think the entry requirements are very similar (high) to Medicine, and competition is possibly even more fierce for places.)

There are medical schools that now do foundation year for missed grades or students with non-science A levels.
Have a look at the new medical school opening at Lincoln university, it's run by University of Nottingham but they will be doing the foundation year and they open brand new medical school this year.

Also now it's not just down to grades they want personal skills, work experience, voluntary work and to see ability in personal reflection.

That's great she's got ambition. However (as a sixth form tutor who manages our medical and oxbridge applications), I would have said the door is already closed due to her gcse results. It is true that there are more places this year but students with gcse grades 7+ will be the ones taking up those places.

Have a look at local nhs apprenticeship schemes, loads will have open days you can go and have a look. Speak to the staff rather than students about entry requirements.

My cousin is a surgical assistant in the USA but I don't think it's a job that exists in UK. She really just helps in surgery, keeps track of the instruments & procedures, but never deals with conscious patients.

She will struggle with medicine if she's not a people person - it's the one thing they actually want you to be! "Make every contact count" and all that. Plus they have to do the whole medical course and the foundation years training (which is with awake patients).
Healthcare in general probably isn't for someone who isn't a people person - perhaps go into a lab instead?

Medical engineering? I have a DC who did work experience in a hospital and came home raving about the equipment used to do echocardiograms and fit a pacemaker.
Maths will be important again though. There are many routes, degrees, apprenticeships etc.

It’s the maths that is a problem
Is she interested in pharmacy?

With similar results and personality I found a degree in Prosthetics with Orthotics extremely interesting and worthwhile.

yeoldetrout yes it does, it sounds like an ODP, operating department practioner

@ChesterBelloc I agree with a few posters here about chiropractic or physiotherapy options. She could attach herself to either the nhs or private sectors and would always have the option of increased private work alongside the health and fitness industry. biomedics is also a very credible suggestion.

I’d be careful of putting her off, medicine is something that once it gets under your skin is difficult to shake. If every door closes on her she will come to her own realisation. To this day the only person who knows my dreadful a-level results is my mum. Everyone told me I’d never get into medicine. I’m a hospital consultant. There are other ways to get into medicine other than the traditional alevel route. I would caution 2 things though.

1. Speaking from experience , if it’s that hard to get into Med school she will always find it tough. Most doctors are pretty smart. Most of them set aside a few months of their lives to pass the big post grad exams. I set aside years. I literally gave medicine everything, and looking back I resent that now. I met DH & had DC after I’d done all my big exams, but I’m really struggling to keep up to date As I just don’t have time with DC and a DH. I’m seriously considering giving up.
2. Don’t do nursing. In fact don’t do any allied HP job that is restricted to working in the NHS. I would PAY my own children not to do nursing- it’s overworked, underpaid, under appreciated and has the lowest glass ceiling. If your dd then goes on to have DC she won’t even earn enough to pay for childcare. I love the nurses I work with, they have my highest respect, but their job, for the responsibility they hold and how hard they have to work for the pocket-money-like pay they get is utter shit, and I’d never want any child of mine to do it.

I'd suggest she gets some 'people' experience. Whether working in a shop or cafe, so she becomes more confident around humans. My DD is home for the weekend and practising her chest examinations on us all - it's all v up close and personal ! And if she doesn't pass these practical tests then she can't qualify. Being able to touch and interact with all sizes and types of people is vital. So maybe see if she can overcome this hurdle before making any decisions. Lots of routes to be one a Dr if you are determined enough.

The Institute of Fiscal Studies didn’t rank nursing at the bottom of the pay rates for grads after 5 years. It sits in the middle with a lot of other degrees and above education. Many teachers would say they work hard too. I have attached the table if anyone is interested.

Not sure why attachments didn’t attach! Hopefully they will this time!

Technology! Both have now appeared.

DS is in a similar position - not so much in that he won't get the grades, but that he just doesn't have the social skills for medicine. He loves and excels at the science side of it, really interested in how disease "works". But interpersonal skills just aren't there. He would fail the UKCAT hands down.

Lucikly he's more aware of his own limitations. He's looking into courses like Virology, immunology, Pharmacy, Biochemistry, Microbiology. All are still related to medicine, disease and the human body. Immunology at the nearest university to us has minimum entry requirements of BBB - although it does say the typical entrant has AAB.

Worth considering though.

Increasingly medical related courses expect some evidence of interest through volunteering, independent study or work experience. Even if she does not feel comfortable with people could she , for example, volunteer to make tea at a support group/day centre , shadow a therapist or work at a hospital based shop or chemist so that she learns more about what areas she may be interested in pursuing , what careers involve (confidentiality, safeguarding, gdpr, protocols, vulnerable patients, interaction between disciplines) and has something to discuss at interview.