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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Which Oxbridge Courses / Colleges take most state school students?

197 replies

KingscoteStaff · 31/01/2019 16:17

Is the state school/independent school split very different on different courses? Is it very different at different colleges?

Is this data available for last years offers/places?

Is it available for this year's offers?

OP posts:
sendsummer · 09/02/2019 14:19

One does n’t prevent the other.

In fact great literature of a country with the added benefit of when the syntax and vocabultalry is in the native language (Proust is an excellent example) is IMO one of the routes into understanding culture and perspective. Often more productive than superficial mondain conversations.

MariaNovella · 09/02/2019 14:26

The study of foreign language literature in an ivory tower is, IMO and IME, a monumental pretension and explains why MFL as an academic discipline has withered on the vine in the UK. Our leaders do not speak foreign languages well enough to understand “the other”. Brexit is at least in part due to the massive gulf in understanding between the UK and our European neighbours. Reading Proust in Oxford just isn’t good enough.

sendsummer · 09/02/2019 14:42

MariaNovella you have a very black and white view (perhaps not enough Proust Wink. It is imortant to have a plurality of university MFL course types and therefore choices.
You may think literature is not worth studying but some students will prefer it as they would for degree choices in their native language. Those may be more drawn to the Oxbridge courses. Others will want to do international studies or linked to STEM degrees or history or whatever. All possible.
However as I said in a PP the barrier is often the level of language skills required for degrees in the main European MFLs.

MariaNovella · 09/02/2019 14:43

Where have I said literature is not worth studying? That is the very opposite of what I believe.

sendsummer · 09/02/2019 14:46

MFLs take effort, less so if you have an immersive environment or are learning English as your second language.

It is excellent that years abroad are available for so many non MFL courses. Not enough to learn a language but better than nothing

sendsummer · 09/02/2019 14:51

I am afraid I am not grasping your point then in this thread. You think MFL literature degrees are a ‘monumental pretension’.

I did not do one of these degrees but admire those who have and the culture they have gained from it as well as the MFL.

MariaNovella · 09/02/2019 15:12

No, I think they are a monumental pretension in an ivory tower ie outside any true immersive experience in the language and culture.

sendsummer · 09/02/2019 15:36

Oxbridge MFL degrees have a year abroad. So again what is your point?

FordPerfect · 09/02/2019 16:56

Going back to comments about native speakers studying MFL at Oxbridge, I have asked DCs who are studying/studied MFLs and it seems to vary according to language. For French, there is a significant number who have French somewhere in the family background/have lived in France at some point. For a certain E European language there were no native speakers in DC's particular year. For another language which you can start from scratch, I'm told only 1 out of the 40 odd is a native speaker. So a mixed picture.

Dancingdreamer · 09/02/2019 17:12

Just to go back to the original question Oxford and Cambridge do have government targets to achieve re the percentage of state students (still below the percentage of 6th form students educated in state schools). Looking at the stats, over the last 5 years or so, the percentage of independent students accepted into Oxbridge has fallen and the gap has been filled largely with grammar school pupils.

My friend’s privately educated DD was rejected from Cambridge. The college told her that she was strong enough for a place but that they only had 1 place for an independent student on her course and they had offered that to a stronger independent candidate. She wasn’t picked up in the pool but reapplied and got a place second time.

openday · 09/02/2019 17:49

MariaNovella, you're absolutely right to say that the best way to learn a language is to live in a country where that language is spoken and immerse yourself in the culture. But a university MFL degree isn't JUST about learning to speak/read/write a foreign language; it's about learning certain thinking and analytical skills as well.

I didn't mean to imply that language learning isn't at the core of the Oxbridge MFL courses: it is! Students do spend a year of the course abroad working and/or studying, as sendsummer said. The language classes at Oxbridge are normally taught by native speakers (with a few exceptions, such as translation classes that involve translating from the foreign language into English -- these are more usually taught by native English speakers). At the end of the course, students will have a high level of fluency, in both speaking and writing.

Here's a blurb from the Oxford MFL course webpage explaining the relative emphasis on language and literature:

Language is at the centre of the Oxford course, making up around 50% of both first-year and final examinations. The course aims to teach spoken fluency in colloquial and more formal situations, as well as the ability to write essays in the foreign language, and the ability to translate into and out of the foreign language with accuracy and sensitivity to a range of vocabulary, styles and registers. You will also develop your reading skills to a high level.

The study of literature gives you an understanding of other cultures that cannot be acquired solely through learning the language. It leads you into areas such as gender studies, popular culture, theatre, aesthetics, anthropology, art history, ethics, history, philosophy, politics, psychology and theology, developing your skills as a critical reader, writer and thinker.

I'm not trying to argue that Oxford's way is the best way of doing things; it's one way of doing things. I've already said that for candidates who love MFL but don't necessarily love reading literature, the Oxford course isn't for them: they would be better off doing a different kind of uni course elsewhere.

Studying literary, philosophical and historical texts (and films) in a foreign language isn't the same as living in a foreign country, but it does give you a particular kind of 'deep' knowledge about the culture. For example, understanding the French concept of 'laicite' in contemporary culture can be enriched by studying the ideas that informed the French Revolution. Literature IS about life: it's about love, sex, families, gender, race, war, politics, refugees and so on. Also, culture is deeply embedded in language, and so reading in the original language helps you understand culture on a much more profound level than reading in translation would do. But I'm probably stating the obvious.

I dislike the 'ivory tower' phrase because it implies that people studying and working at universities are somehow cut off from real life. We're not. As I've just been saying, MFL students spend a lot of time talking and thinking about other people's lives, both now and in the past. And in addition, being at university doesn't mean you're not living. Mental health issues among university students are very pressing: they're learning how to live independently and how to deal with an intensive workload. A lot of them have complicated family backgrounds, regardless of how economically privileged they are or aren't (there's the undergrad I taught whose father was mentally ill and who committed suicide during her first year at Oxford; there's the 2nd year undergrad whose mother died of breast cancer; and so on). Being at university doesn't make them somehow immune to real life issues. The city of Oxford also has a dark side: there are big problems with homelessness and drug addiction (there have been articles about this recently in the national news). Many students volunteer in various capacities with charities around the city.

So while I'm used to hearing the term 'ivory tower', I don't think it's helpful. It all depends on what you're comparing the tower to. I suspect most of us on MN live ivory-tower existences if you think about the war in Syria, or even people in the council estates on the edge of Oxford who are trying to work out how to feed their kids on universal credit.

OK, I will get off my podium now Grin

But my main point is that there are loads of productive ways to learn languages and engage with other cultures. Doing an MFL course at Oxford is good, but it's not the holy grail.

sendsummer, that's a good point about Oxford MFL doing more ab initio courses like Classics (or beginners' language courses -- clearly you speak the lingo). In fact more beginners' courses are available now than in the past: for example, you can study German, Italian and Russian at Oxford now with no previous knowledge of the language. However as the courses stand you have to come in knowing one language to a high standard already, and then do the beginners' language in addition. So it's not perfect...

openday · 09/02/2019 17:58

I also meant to say, too bad about your DD, goodbyestranger! I recognise you (or think I do) as the Supermum who has sent 8 kids (am I right?!) to Oxford.

I lurk on MN far too much a lot but change usernames on the rare occasions when I talk about Oxbridge, so as to keep my chaotic home life a bit separate from my professional life. Grin

goodbyestranger · 09/02/2019 18:51

FordPerfect (or anyone!): what is even one native speaker out of forty doing on an ab initio course?!

openday not eight but several and very far removed from what I assume a S/m must be like, though I grant you that several having gone does begin to look like some ghastly domestic master plan. DD4 is going to the Classics Open Day in March to see if she might be suited to the ab initio course for 2020. But I can't really see why tutors would want to take on students for the ab initio course when they can have those with A level Latin or Greek all ready to go. I don't think DD4 has looked to see if there's a quota but I doubt that there is.

MariaNovella · 09/02/2019 18:52

openday - I am totally aware that a university MFL degree isn’t just about speaking/reading/writing a language. I did a MFL degree. I have read and continue to read literature and watch films in their original Spanish/Italian/French and am even prepared to try to tackle the German I had somewhat left by the wayside now that one of our DC is making good progress with German. However, I don’t believe anyone can grasp laïcité and understand where religious life ends and Republican life begins unless they have lived it as well as understood its origins.

Anyway, we will never agree about the value of an MFL degree. I shall now go and make dinner - the Syrian refugee I mentor is coming over.

FordPerfect · 09/02/2019 19:06

goodbyestranger - half studying that language are ab initio, half post A Level. The native speaker is not taking the ab initio route.

MariaNovella · 09/02/2019 19:15

My sister studied an MFL ab initio at Cambridge that she had already studied for four years at school, learning by direct method. She also spent part of her gap year in the country of that language. She was forced into ab initio because (according to Cambridge) her qualification in that language was not A-level standard.

Anyway, she got very bored and switched subject out of MFL.

openday · 10/02/2019 11:22

But I can't really see why tutors would want to take on students for the ab initio course when they can have those with A level Latin or Greek all ready to go.

goodbyestranger, if the Classics ab initio course is structured like the MFL ones, I don't think the tutors will really mind either way. For the first year of the ab initio course, most of the intensive language teaching is taught centrally, so the students are studying with the other ab initio people from across the university and have less contact with their college tutors. Then in the 2nd year they join the cohort of entering non-ab initio students and the college tutors take over from there.

sendsummer · 10/02/2019 11:39

For French and other main European MFLs, I would suggest that a single honours course is adapted for the very limited familiarity from GCSE (and even A level when poorly taught) so that the linguistic/ grammar skills required can be delivered in the first year as well the cultural / literature components. This would not be that different from Classics II where students start with some familiarity from prior language preparation.
Goodbyestranger the reality for Oxbridge academics is that they can’t expect to select and teach only the most advanced able students for some subjects. That is in part due to the expected role for universities to now compensate for disparities between educational choices and teaching available. As you know in any case often undergraduate teaching is delegated down. Anyway from what I have heard students of the Classics II courses are very able as well as interested in the humanities aspects of the course so tutors are delighted to attract such students.
Classics at other universities have a year abroad option which might appeal to your DD. Not Oxbridge though.

MariaNovella · 10/02/2019 13:10

the reality for Oxbridge academics is that they can’t expect to select and teach only the most advanced able students for some subjects

Yes. And, for an advanced able student committed to understanding, say, France, there are degrees that are more appropriate than MFL at Oxford eg double law at King’s, ESPS-SciencesPo at UCL.

sendsummer · 10/02/2019 13:28

As an aside but on the theme of disparity in educational backgrounds, I think the direction of travel for England / Wales is going to have to be the USA / Scottish model of 4 year undergraduate degrees as standard, with core skills and a choice of exploratory modules taught in the first year.

There would be the possibility to select harder modules or go straight to the second year depending on academic level.
The first year should be centrally funded according to means testing and school context. Universities increasingly have foundation years —although often for the purpose of income generation from international students— so not too big a step for them to deliver apart of course from upscaling.

sendsummer · 10/02/2019 13:33

Yes Maria those are excellent choices for those students not interested in studying literature. Unfortunately I suspect that successful UK applications will be mainly from students with some prior advantage in French.

Needmoresleep · 10/02/2019 13:40

Why?

This discussion is useful in that it highlights the need to consider why you want to study a language.

And perhaps gives good reason why it is useful to keep up with a language at A level whatever you want to study. Observation only, but Warwick seemed to give some weighting to economics applicants who had languages, presumably because they then had more takers for inter University exchange schemes.

MariaNovella · 10/02/2019 14:53

Unfortunately I suspect that successful UK applications will be mainly from students with some prior advantage in French.

Yes, and we come back to the most fundamental issue - the appalling standards of MFL within the mainstream education system. Such a tragedy.

MariaNovella · 10/02/2019 15:39

For French and other main European MFLs, I would suggest that a single honours course is adapted for the very limited familiarity from GCSE (and even A level when poorly taught) so that the linguistic/ grammar skills required can be delivered in the first year as well the cultural / literature components.

Wouldn’t it be more efficient to send students to France for a year for their first year to do a course such as: www.ccfs-sorbonne.fr/?lang=en

adrinkofwater · 10/02/2019 16:11

Can I ask a question that is not about MFL degrees, but has a vague link?

DS is in year 12 taking maths, f maths, physics and French A levels. He hopes to do a maths degree at Oxbridge (not decided which yet). IF he gets offered a place, are we right in thinking it will be based on all 4 A levels (including an A in French even though it's not relevant to the degree).Whereas if he drops French before filling in his UCAS form it will be basically the same but without French. IE either A A A or A A A A. This seems to be what I have read is people's experience, but I can't see it mentioned on either website.

It seems to me that continuing with French is risky as it is badly taught at his school and only native speakers (and even then rarely) get As. also his school (state grammar) really like everyone to do 4, although you can sometimes argue your case to drop one.

Are we right in thinking that Oxbridge always give offers based on all A levels you are doing even if the standard offer is for 3 A levels?