Which Oxbridge Courses / Colleges take most state school students?

[KingscoteStaff]

Is the state school/independent school split very different on different courses? Is it very different at different colleges?

Is this data available for last years offers/places?

Is it available for this year's offers?

Also Kingscote to follow up from Genevieva , Oxford have a separate aptitude test for those coming from schools where there was no Latin or Greek on offer , different from those schools where those subjects were on offer. They do ( I believe ) a catch up course in 1st year ( of a 4 year degree ) A friend of Ds ( Oxford) ( who did do classics at school ) said after 1st year - everyone is pretty much on a level playing field.

So doesn't answer question re MFL but hope it will help someone.

Maths and science generally have extra admissions tests, STEP for example. Maybe that's the issue?

Also, for MFL, they only need to have one A level standard language for Oxford as it offers a much wider range of joint MFL degrees than Cambridge (where you basically have to offer two languages or at least offer one and take another ab initio.) At Oxford you can do one modern language with any of history, English, Classics, linguistics or philosophy, or of course two languages, with the second being ab initio.

I think the ‘more private school pupils apply, that’s why more get in’ argument is terrible. It doesn’t take into account the fact that private school pupils get years of advantageous education leading to better results and better support and encouragement to apply. I am always astonished that people can’t grasp that.

Bowchica However, the state schools that get a high proportion of candidates into Oxbridge, and there are quite a few, also get support, encouragement and advice. It just needs the will.

Olderthanaverage I find the ‘it just needs the will’ argument very patronising and simplistic. The disparity in pupil premium is unfair and puts a lot of kids at an immediate disadvantage. The schools which tend to do well are usually SE based which means they have the benefit of being in close proximity to well resourced museums, theatres etc whilst the rest of the UK still suffers under the austerity cuts. It really just isn’t down to the parents, children and teachers not having the ‘will’

State school children often feel they won't get in. Don't know about Oxford but in my day (graduated 2013) Cambridge had a proactive outreach team to encourage applications from the state sector. The school in Newnham which recently had 41 offers started encouraging ALL its students to apply as it noticed that the successful applicants were not necessarily those that the school thought would be successful.

As pps have said, what is a private/state school pupil? I went to a grammar school and there were some seriously posh and rich girls there (not me!) and the school has a number of famous alumni. There are some pretty high-achieving comprehensives out there too, eg Hills Road Sixth Form in Cambridge which no doubt has a fair few dcs of the professors there!

There is also the assumption by many on MN that all state school pupils are super bright and having their rightful places stolen by dimwit Bertie Wooster types who are exchanging knowing banter with crusty professors at interview.

Also college stats: fairly difficult to read because as someone else said, many colleges get pooled candidates (as the college might be far out/women only/modern) so you would have to delve further into actual application statistics.

One major difference is in subject choice. Some subjects are heavily dominated by private school candidates eg MFL and Classics. That is the fault lower down the system: Classics not taught much in state system and MFL taught poorly/undemanding syllabus/few high calibre MFL teachers/lack of interest of pupils/difficult subject/perception that native speakers will grab all the places.

I think that's an unfair accusation Irma. designed to shut people up who want to point out the obvious unfairness in the education system.

Purely factually, I'd like to correct a misleading statement that I see frequently on these threads: that MFL compares to Classics at Oxbridge in terms of domination by private school students. It's nothing like it and I don't know why people seem to have this perception.

I don't know about Cambridge, but the Oxford admissions for subject by school type are easily available. Here are the lowest 10 subjects by percentage of state school admissions for 2018:

Classics 28.9%
Theology and Religion: 37.2%
Philosophy, Politics and Economics 42.6%
Music 48.1%
Geography 49.8%
Economics and Management: 51.4%
History 51.7%
MFL 52.1%
Engineering Science 52.4%
Materials Science 53.2%

I don't know why people aren't citing Geography, History and Engineering as 'dominated by private school pupils' on the same basis.

There are lots of other subjects in the higher 50s too (English, Biological Sciences, Chemistry, Oriental Studies, PPE) so MFL is in no way an outlier like Classics is.

I can't see how I'm being unfair nor am I trying to "shut people up".

My dcs have been state school all the way, and believe me I can spot when the rot sets in, and it's not when the candidates come to apply. Many, many children live in a cultural wasteland and schools do nothing to ameliorate the problem. The teaching may be fine, adhering to all the standards, but everything is very dumbed down. Let's take music, for example. When I was a governor of a primary school, I tentatively suggested that instead of or as well as the pop music that was played at lunchtimes and in assembly, could they be introduced to a wider variety of genres. (Nowt wrong with pop music, btw, I am a bit of an expert!) . I was fixed with a withering look by the Head, who said, "The children can't access classical music. It is outside of their experience and is not fun." So that was that. GCSE Music... have you seen what an insult to the intelligence that is?! Studying Beatbox and Grime... [shakes head]

It doesn’t take into account the fact that private school pupils get years of advantageous education leading to better results

Where to start with that one!

Do you really expect Oxford, or any other university for that matter, to be solely responsible for redressing the imbalance in social equality that exists in the UK? Play a part by all means (contextual offers, widening access visits etc), but totally alleviate it, hell no.

Besides which you fail to acknowledge that most state schools educate the entire ability range, whereas most private schools educate a much narrower, and higher, ability range.

State provision caters to all - BTECs and Law A Level - neither of which are going to help Oxbridge entrance.

Billy who got 5 x grade 5 GCSEs will be much better served doing a BTEC Health and Social Care than Maths, Physics and Chemistry A Levels. Bucketloads of Billies in the state sector, very very few in private.

Social Inequality needs addressing years and years and years before sixth form.

I know quite a few MFL undergraduates at and graduates from both Oxford and Cambridge. To be frank: a child who has studied MFL in a state school according to the GCSE and A level syllabus but has no additional MFL input (foreign language in the family, lots of immersion, has lived overseas...) is going to have a very hard time making a competitive application to an Oxbridge MFL course.

Ds considered A Level French. I enquired as to how many people on the course would be native speakers. A lot. Someone doesn't necessarily have to be called Macron to have a French parent - in fact dd's friend is half French and is called (nearly) Smith. Back in my day (80s) there seemed to be a more level playing field - the A Level was much more literature based which did not disfavour the Brit with the terrible accent.

So even if you have an aptitude for languages a state-school pupil is competing against a) the more intensively educated b) the native speaker and c) the wealthy person spending holidays in immersive situation.

TBH a state educated pupil with an aptitude for MFL is going to be clobbered by Brexit when opportunities to work casually in France/Germany/Spain etc are going to end.

I think you will find titchy that is exactly the point I am making

Many, many children live in a cultural wasteland and schools do nothing to ameliorate the problem. The teaching may be fine, adhering to all the standards, but everything is very dumbed down.

This.

SE based which means they have the benefit of being in close proximity to well resourced museums, theatres etc

Are you suggesting you need to go to museums and theatres to get into Oxbridge. Or be resident in the SE.

Once again. I re-iterate, if you don't apply you don't get in. There is a lot of "not for the likes of us" which goes on. Also, many students from the North don't apply to any Southern universities and vice versa. That is just geography.

My DD did a lot of outreach at Oxford, and was always very saddened that the biggest barrier to application was attitude. She had teachers saying, whilst sitting there in Oxford, that they didn't know why they had bothered coming, as no-one was going to apply anyway. Very, very sad.

TBH living in a culturally rich environment makes a huge difference to education.

Older I am saying that it helps a lot, especially given that Oxbridge care so much about super curricular activities.

I am saying that it helps a lot, especially given that Oxbridge care so much about super curricular activities

Of course extra curricular provides a breadth of experience. However, in a contextual environment, Oxbridge do not expect all students to be equal. Not all will have been hiking in the Himalayas. DD didn't put anything extra on her PS, not was she asked about anything other than her subject choice in her interviews.

I suspect you’ll find a higher proportion of state educated kids accepted for maths / science based subjects rather than arts based subjects. There is less of a public school advantage at interview in those subjects.

Hiking in the Himalayas is not a super curricular activity.

Super curricular activities aren’t things like hiking in the Himalayas *Older.’ That would be classed as extracurricular.

look into the courses with lowest applications, they are easier to get onto, at more obscure colleges.