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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Which Oxbridge Courses / Colleges take most state school students?

197 replies

KingscoteStaff · 31/01/2019 16:17

Is the state school/independent school split very different on different courses? Is it very different at different colleges?

Is this data available for last years offers/places?

Is it available for this year's offers?

OP posts:
IrmaFayLear · 08/02/2019 09:17

I agree with goodbyestranger that you just don't know what background MFL applicants have. However talented an "ordinary" applicant is at grammar and however much their interest, they are not going to be as good as one with the same aptitude but with a massive head start. Interestingly a friend of dd's who is half French is actually awful at French, because she struggles with the grammar, but another student who is generally more able is streets ahead by virtue of a French Canadian background. No clue in the surname.

Furthermore, for Oxbridge (and other places too) it's about the As (or 8s and 9s for GCSEs). And that is why MFLs are often given a big old swerve. Looking at the stats it's far easier to get an A in some subjects than others.

I like your encouraging words, openday, and heartily wish it were true, but dd has still decided not to take French A Level for fear of running up against the secret native speakers.

goodbyestranger · 08/02/2019 09:31

That's right MariaNovella. And especially so where there's any suggestion that it's more than systemic because then you're getting down to criticism of individuals. As you say, blindingly obvious. A superselective HT who's a supremely wise bird said to me a few weeks ago that failing departments in these schools will point out the students who got 9s and say well we must be doing something right whereas in fact those students will overwhelmingly have achieved a 9 through self study and looking at the specs and learning the bits of grammar needed to hit the 9 but which they weren't ever taught. The really motivated students in superselectives are usually equal to that, but it's still a challenge to pull it off. On the face of it an admissions tutor will think ah grammar school/ 9/ expected yet in plenty of cases that will be miles from the truth.

MariaNovella · 08/02/2019 09:41

The really motivated students in superselectives are usually equal to that, but it's still a challenge to pull it off.

It’s always a challenge to have to self study in order to plug the gaps left by the school but MFL really are especially challenging in this respect. Learning MFL without fairly significant exposure to well qualified native speakers and some form of immersive experience is nonsensical.

Young learners of English as a MFL are helped immeasurably by Netflix 😎. Teachers and even Education Ministries are 😱 at the progress in just a few years.

KingscoteStaff · 08/02/2019 11:04

So do we think there should be 2 different MFL GCSE and A level exams - one for native speakers, one for not? Like the English as a second language IGCE qualification? I suppose native speakers could lie, though.

Also, won’t the new bell-curve marking of the 1-9 GCSE mean that the 2% of 9s will be swallowed up by native speakers?

OP posts:
goodbyestranger · 08/02/2019 11:23

But Kingscote lots of native speakers have non native names. Also, I'd expect the skewing of grades to be more pronounced at A level rather than at GCSE, but that's purely a guess - I'm no linguist.

I also think that Oxbridge tutors may be perfectly happy to take on far more native speakers than is 'fair'. Why would you not want to teach literature and culture and history to those already fluent in the language, if you specialised in that area? They can access primary texts with far more ease than the non native speakers, and are therefore likely to be more interesting to teach, or more interesting more quickly at least.

One tutor at one of the academically strongest colleges at Oxford made no bones to a colleague about preferring independent school applicants, purely on the grounds that they came ready prepared, and on that basis were more interesting to teach. I don't know at what point being easier or more interesting to teach cuts in as a decision making tool for offers, but these tutors are all primarily taken up with research. I think I'd probably pick those I thought would engage more readily and easily with - I can at least see the point. I'm not sure it's a very good political point of a tutor to make though, in public.

MariaNovella · 08/02/2019 11:51

they came ready prepared, and on that basis were more interesting to teach

TBH, as someone who has spent many years explaining things to people from others about my culture, it does become terribly tedious talking to people with absolutely no cultural/linguistic perspective. However much, ideologically, one cannot but support the idea of hardworking and motivated but ill prepared state school pupils being given the opportunity to study MFL at Oxbridge, I have every sympathy with tutors who find it a great deal more rewarding to teach students whose starting point gives them a far greater capacity for grasping the underlying, and usually implicit, assumptions about culture that are everywhere in literature..

goodbyestranger · 08/02/2019 12:07

MariaNovella I should probably have said that the tutor wasn't MFL, I was merely extrapolating over from his general comment to MFL. But I do see why it might be agreeable for the literature etc tutors to teach native speakers, and equally I believe it's not something which can be articulated generally. I might also be wrong but the students at Oxford do seem to see and know a lot of native speakers doing MFL and this doesn't really square with the reassuring noises being made by tutors. Although equally the non native speakers might be exaggerating the extent - that wouldn't surprise me enormously either! I also don't see any reason why a genuinely interested native speaker shouldn't want to study literature and culture either - perfectly legitimate. But if it's just for an easy ticket in and a relatively languid four years at Oxford or Cambridge - then not so much.

cinnamontoast · 08/02/2019 12:37

openday, sadly the Etonian most definitely did make that remark. I hope it’s not typical, but the attitude certainly exists. I have read and heard it elsewhere - mainly from parents of privately educated children.

IrmaFayLear · 08/02/2019 13:53

I think the parents are the worst - especially if their dcs are unsuccessful. I remember seeing on here a few years ago on one of the Oxbridge threads (probably searchable) a poster talk about "state school chancers" !! I think they had a couple of bags of McCain oven chips on each shoulder.

cinnamontoast · 08/02/2019 14:29

Such entitlement! The underlying assumptions is that state school pupils are taking something from them that is rightfully theirs. It’s like the attitude of some men to female advancement.

goodbyestranger · 08/02/2019 15:01

Some (disappointed) parents have said that my DC got in more easily because they didn't have to contend with the anti public school bias.

cinnamontoast · 08/02/2019 15:17

Yes, it’s crazy, isn’t it, goodbyestranger? The underlying assumption is that state school children simply aren’t as bright. Point them towards the academic results league tables - many colleges with a good record on state school entry are at the top.

Parents who assume that paying for a private education will buy their children privileged access tend to be angry when they find out they were wrong.

IrmaFayLear · 08/02/2019 15:27

Oh, the sour grapes! Someone said to me, with tinkly laugh, "Isn't it nice they bend over to let in state school pupils now?" and another said, "Is that one of those newer colleges on the outskirts?" Implication being I suppose that only the deserving get the old colleges in the centre! (I replied that it wasn't one of the really old colleges, as it had been founded in 13-something. Went over her head, though, I think.)

However, it seems from all the threads that both private and state school parents feel their unsuccessful dcs have been the victim of insupportable bias. But with thousands of applicants there are a fair few who aren't going to get in...

KingscoteStaff · 08/02/2019 16:02

You’re right - last year there was a massive argument on one of the threads with one mum convinced her boy had been rejected because he unpolished and state educated and another mum equally sure that the only reason her boy hadn’t got an offer was that the college were predjudiced against public school toffs.

OP posts:
openday · 08/02/2019 16:22

Crikey, there are some misconceptions here.

goodbyestranger, I never said that the schools should mention poor MFL provision on their language forms; what I meant was that the applicants should mention it in their personal statement. I can see, however, that in some cases this might be too delicate to do in practice (as the applicant wouldn't want to offend the school). However, it crossed my mind just because in my many years of reading UCAS applications, I HAVE seen some schools and applicants be refreshingly honest about the lack of good language provision, and state that the candidate was so motivated that they carried on pursuing the study of the language anyway.

A few other points:

  • It's just not true that our MFL courses at Oxford are dominated by native speakers. In fact I find the idea slightly humorous, having just marked three sets of language translations from different year groups that are riddled to varying degrees with comprehension errors! At the main college where I teach, we have no native speakers at all across the current four years of students. In the secondary college where I teach, I think we have two: one in one year and one in another. Again, I think there's a misconception here that knowledge of the language is everything, whereas in reality it's only one component of the course. In fact I think interviewers tend to be a bit wary of native speakers, because we want to make sure they have a genuine passion for language and literary study and are not just using their knowledge of the language as 'an easy way in', as someone above said. I have interviewed lots of native speakers who weren't ultimately offered places. The bulk of the MFL admissions interview consists of a mini-tutorial where you ask the candidate questions in English about a literary text written in French or German or whatever. They will generally have had time to study the passage beforehand. Then in the last five minutes or so of the interview, we chat with them in the target language. It's a pleasant surprise if the candidate speaks beautifully in those five minutes, but their aptitude at discussing the passage is more important. Also, we don't look for perfect spoken grammar, but for candidates who are willing to take the risk of speaking and making mistakes (as that is how they learn). The only way you can really doom yourself in those last five minutes is by being too frightened to say anything in the target language at all. The written work that the candidates submit beforehand also gives an indication of how fluent they are in the language they're applying for. Again, however, they can have a perfect mastery of the foreign language (though they generally don't!) and still not be admitted to Oxford, because they haven't shown enough evidence of the all-important literary and analytical sensibility.
  • I hold to my statement that the analytical writing skills of Oxford's MFL graduates are every bit as good as those of Oxford's English graduates. With all due respect, Marianovella, I think you must have studied MFL at a place where the course was structured differently. Some universities do all the MFL teaching immersion-style, so that all the teaching and student writing happens in the target language. There are obvious benefits to this in terms of language learning, but it doesn't work that way at Oxford. Some (though not all) of the language teaching happens in the target language. But most of the literature lectures, and all of the literature teaching, are conducted in English. Students also write in English about the texts they have read in the target language. I sometimes feel quite sad about the fact I can go so long in a term without actually speaking the language I teach! But the advantage is that the students are not held back in any way by inability to express themselves. Because they reading the texts in the original language, but writing and conversing in English, a major focus of the course is on how to make clear, nuanced arguments in English. I have done co-marking with colleagues in English literature (both at the undergrad and post-grad level) and frankly, we are using the same marking criteria. The only difference is that the MFL course has the added linguistic element. (But even in English it is possible to study the evolution of the English language over the many centuries it has existed.) Like the bookshelves of my English colleagues, my bookshelves are laden with books on literary theory, gender studies, post-colonial criticism and so on. I sometimes think it's a shame that the course isn't an 'immersion' course (as is the case at most American universities), but the benefit of doing it the way it's done at Oxford is that our MFL students leave with English writing skills that will be immensely valuable to them in the work world. And they do have one exam that involves writing an essay in the target language, as well as translation exams that involve translating fluently from one language to the other and vice versa.

-- Finally, I have to roll my eyes at the idea of a tutor who would rather teach people from independent schools. Seriously?! I suppose tutors like that may well exist, but they're not the norm. I could give a whole list of reasons here to prefer students from state schools. I'm reluctant to do so because the bottom line is that we want people who are passionate about the subject and will work hard and make the most of their time at university, regardless of the school they come from. But here are a few reasons I could give for preferring state school students after many years of teaching at Oxford:
- they might have less of a sense of entitlement, so be more 'teachable' and work harder. They're not complacent about their cleverness and tempted to 'coast' along doing the minimum

  • they might be less 'burned out' compared to students from independent schools who have already been pushed hard and hothoused
  • they might not yet have realised their full potential. If they've achieved what they've managed to achieve without lots of individual attention and tutoring, imagine how much they will achieve once they get the one-to-one tutorial attention that Oxbridge offers
  • they are more like my own DC (OK, there, I've said it!). Academic salaries have not risen over the years in equal proportion to other professional salaries, and living in Oxford is so expensive that many tutors cannot afford to buy houses in Oxford on the salaries they earn, much less send their DC to expensive private schools.

I teach lots of independent school students who are absolutely lovely and who have made the most of their education, so I don't want to imply that prejudice swings the other way, but please don't assume that most Oxford tutors prefer students from independent schools, because that's utter rubbish.

I might also mention that there are a fair few MFL applicants from independent schools who have not been well-taught. As part of the application, we receive marked written work, and some of the written work is very badly marked (with high marks given but basic grammar errors not corrected, etc). So poor as MFL provision in state schools may be, don't just assume that sending your child to an expensive school necessarily means that they're being taught well.

And yeah cinnamontoast, I don't doubt for a moment that the Etonian actually said that. I just think he was an exceptional twat. I hope he didn't get in either. Grin

MariaNovella · 08/02/2019 16:25

I also don't see any reason why a genuinely interested native speaker shouldn't want to study literature and culture either - perfectly legitimate. But if it's just for an easy ticket in and a relatively languid four years at Oxford or Cambridge - then not so much.

I agree with your sentiments. I am not entirely convinced that having native speakers (of which there are many variants, some less obvious to the naked eye/ear than others) on MFL courses is especially valuable to the native speakers themselves unless they are real literature buffs who want a career in academia. But I think that having native speakers raises the game for those that aren’t, and makes things more interesting for tutors.

There is something very old fashioned about the idea of a British student studying, say, French at Cambridge. My grandmother did this in the 1920s when of course it would have been quite unheard of for a middle class girl from Sutton High such as she to study French in France. My grandmother didn’t even have a year abroad.

openday · 08/02/2019 16:28

Oh dear, I meant 'reference letters' in my post above, not 'language forms'. It has been a long day and I need to back off from the computer now!

MariaNovella · 08/02/2019 16:42

openday - while I admire your defence of the analytical writing skills of MFL graduates versus English graduates at your university, I am afraid that we will have to disagree. My opinion is not based on my own undergraduate experience and I am a very strong defender of the value of MFL. In my own family (grandparents and direct descendants) there are or have been fluent speakers of French, German, Russian, Arabic, Chinese, Spanish, Italian, Swedish, Dutch, Greek, Hebrew and various Indian languages. Plus the odd Classicist. We all speak English as our mother-tongue and my family is not especially large. We love learning languages and I will defend the value of MFL to the hilt. I just, from experience, find that MFL graduates lack some of the skills of other humanities graduates from the same university and that does include Oxbridge graduates.

goodbyestranger · 08/02/2019 16:53

MariaNovella my mother's elder sister went to study French at the Sorbonne in 1937, and that side of the family was archetypal middle class - though Scottish, and middle class Scots were a little different in their attitude to women's education to their peers in Sutton (I grew up a stone's throw from Sutton and was offered a direct grant place at your aunt's old school but declined it for another free place at another GPDST, so the schools and the place are known quantities). Unusual I agree, but not unheard of. My mother and her younger sister also read French - at St Andrews - in 1945, but now you mention it neither had a year abroad either.

openday well one such certainly exists in BNC, or did very recently. Also, I did add the caveat that the Oxford students might magnify the numbers of native speakers in their head!

openday · 08/02/2019 16:53

Your family sounds great in their love of languages, Maria.

But do you know anyone who's studying MFL at Oxford or Cambridge now? Talk to them about what the course is like and what kind of skills it fosters.

Oxford also offers a joint course with MFL/English (more competitive to get into than a straight MFL course if I'm honest). The essays I receive from the students reading English are not necessarily any better than the essays of the students reading straight MFL.

You're entitled to your opinion of MFL graduates, of course, but I repeat that it doesn't seem to be based on any direct experience of the Oxbridge courses as they are currently structured.

goodbyestranger · 08/02/2019 16:54

Not MFL at BNC though! That's repetition I know but may be worthwhile!

openday · 08/02/2019 16:56

Oh no goodbyestranger, now I'm thinking I might know who you mean at BNC. But if it's the person I'm thinking of, they're no longer there. I need to stop this meaningless speculation Grin

openday · 08/02/2019 16:57

Oh right, it wasn't an MFL person! I don't know them then! Relief.

MariaNovella · 08/02/2019 17:01

But do you know anyone who's studying MFL at Oxford or Cambridge now? Talk to them about what the course is like and what kind of skills it fosters.

Yes, I know both current undergraduates and recent graduates from both universities. I have employed two in recent times and have the opportunity of interviewing several.

MariaNovella · 08/02/2019 17:07

goodbyestranger - interesting. My grandmother’s family on both sides was originally from Berwick-on-Tweed and my grandmother’s mother was unusual in her social circle in Sutton in being exceptionally academically ambitious for her two daughters. However, since my grandfather, when courting my grandmother, was almost ruled out as a suitor by her parents for on one occasion carrying her suitcase up to her bedroom, she was clearly closely chaperoned at all times and the Sorbonne would not have been on the radar!