New GCSEs - do DDs grades rule anywhere out?

[PancakeMum6]

DD did very well in her GCSEs (best in her school) but she’s at an underperforming comp so it’s hard to compare. As they don’t sit AS levels these will be the only grades the universities will see, so we’re trying to work out if her grades are ‘good enough’ for us to bother looking at Oxbridge/Durham/UCL/Bristol etc. as there’s lots of conflicting information. We want to work out where realistic universities are before starting on the open day process!

She’s doing A levels in English Lit, Arabic and French, and she wants to study either French and Arabic, French and English, or French and another language at beginner level.

At GCSE she got
A*s - Arabic, media.
9s - English Lit, maths, French.
9-8 in combined science.
8s - art, English lang.

She’s been reading all sorts about “percentages of As” and can’t tell how the new “8s” are considered. At her school they were described as high As/low As.

it seems to vary by language - I think Ofqual found the effect was most marked in German (slightly surprising, because are there really that many German speakers liviing in the UK? but I suppose because so few non native speakers do German these days the effect of the native speakers on boundaries is more pronounced.)

Yes goodbye it would give me pause for thought, certainly.

Are firsts (in degrees) a question of standard reached or do universities have an informal quota for firsts so that you are competing against your fellow bilingual students? I don't know the answer. A levels are certainly norm referenced but maybe it's different at degree level.

Still, if the perception is that you are disadvantaged that is a problem because students will be dissuaded from doing mfl. (Or, controversially, is it a particular problem? In the scheme of things maybe it doesn't really matter whether students study mfl or something else!)

Applicants for German and those taking German A level has fallen off a cliff so native speakers are a higher proportion than before. Yes, we do have German speakers here! From Switzerland, Austria and Germany. Many came after the war from Germany and still have extended family in Germany and see them regularly. Enough to be immersed in German as the language has been passed down from Generation to generation and not lost.

I know there is a huge difference at A level and during the degree between native speakers and standard students in language acquisition but I was talking about how that advantage is quantified and really how others should be compensated.

As I said above, there isn’t much language teaching on the best degrees until you get to grips with it on your year abroad. A vast amount is teach yourself. Therefore the native speaker can easily get 100% in the compulsory language modules in years 1and 2. DD also found that translation questions seemed to favour those who were fortunate enough to spend a lot of time in France because of the French lifestyle translations that were required in y4. . If you had been to Reunion Island or another French speaking country, you were at a disadvantage again!

I agree. I was pretty goot at German A level but I am sure nothing like as good at native speakers although sometimes you know the rules and grammar better than native speakers if you've learnt a language. There is quite a shortage of german speaking workers at the moment as Germany has jobs in industry etc and fewer and fewer people study it in the UK which is a shame. It fitted so well with my history A level which was a lot about WWI and earlier and WWII and also all the music I did - lots of songs in German. Only 2 of us did the A level in the school and the other girl ended up living in Germany and speaking it every day as her husband's work moved him there. Both of us were English born although her mother spoke another language again so I think she was already bilingual although not in German. German is also useful if you are trying to understand yiddish too. Sorry slightly off the point.

I am sure Arabic is very useful too.

At sixth form open evening I asked how many of those taking French A Level were native speakers (or in that ballpark). It was thought to be about a third. That was enough to put dd off!

In the distant past, the MFL A Level consisted of only, I think, 10% speaking. We had to read three books in original language and of course translation back and forth. That was of course brilliant for those examinees who like a bit of grammar but who sweat with embarrassment when having to speak out loud combined with a hideous plummy English accent.

Now, however, I understand that the A Level is 25% speaking. For that reason alone ds kicked French A Level into touch.

If the playing field was levelled though, it shouldn’t put anyone off. That would be the point. We are giving up on languages when you could argue we need them the most. I think I’m correct in saying you don’t need A*s to get to Oxford for MFL. They know this grade is very difficult to attain by anyone other than native speakers. Others do have a chance if good enough.

A random flick around the Oxford college websites suggests that academia seems to be predominantly the preserve native speakers too so I suppose at the interview stage they're hardly going to discriminate against students like themselves.

To be fair Bubbles AAA is the standard offer for humanities at Oxford; modern languages aren't singled out.

A good number of non-native speakers get A in MFL at my son's (admittedly highly selective) school, though there are some native speakers getting A too - 63% A* across the four modern languages offered last year. In total about 50 kids doing at least one MFL.

At GCSE or A level?

A level

I suppose another question would be: selective state or independent?

If those results are for the state sector at A level then they're extraordinarily good.

Sorry 50 or so MFL A levels so some boys will be doing 2 MFL.

And fifty students!!!! That's exceptional.

Our selective state school paints a markedly different picture.

And independent so all bases loaded in favour of the students, but they are still very good

Cross post. Even so - fifty language exams is huge.

Ah ok - independent explains it!

One of my daughter's schools has 27 although some will be doing 2 and my older son's school 30.

Well, they are obviously very lucky, as far as languages are concerned, because they can afford the resources to staff 4 MFL departments - in fact they have 5 MFL at GCSE but I don't think they offer the 5th at A level. And everyone has to do at least one MFL for GCSE, so many do 2 and some might do 3. My own son did 2 MFL and Latin at GCSE, and is doing 2 MFL at A level. He's not a native speaker, though I guess lots of people doing maths know they'll never be in the top 5 or 10% of mathematicians in the country, but it's still their favourite subject and they're still good at it.

This thread is worrying me a bit, as we've cheerily let DD start A-level French on very little information or family experience (I have O-level German and that's it).

Independent again though Xenia.

In 2017 our generally extremely good selective state school had 15 language papers taken in total (French and German) in a cohort of 110 - no A awarded at all and only 2 As. In 2018 the results improved but numbers were down with the same sized cohort: 11 language papers taken in total - 4 A and 5 As.

KittiesInsane my own DD4 is doing French too, although I was aware of these issues ahead - I didn't want to put pressure on her to give up her favourite subject, but I think her grade may scupper any university offer in whichever subject she chooses tbh.

I see one Oxford college (Trinity) is particularly asking for applications for French from those in the non selective state sector. Presumably the tutor thinks everything is rosy for MFL in the state selective sector too.

DD basically decided to continue the three subjects in which she got 9s (she's bright, but not top of her year like Pancake's daughter). Coming at it from the perspective of a parent who took absolutely none of the same subjects for A-level, that seemed a fair plan - but maybe not!

Her school is one of several massive 6th form colleges in the area. I suppose it's semi-selective as it does have a minimum GCSE entry requirement. Wonder how that would be viewed?

(Entirely theoretical pondering, as I don't think Oxbridge is on her radar.)

Languages are low in numbers here too - DD1 did French at AS and A2. Her yeargroup in year 12 was about 160, and in year 13 drops to about 110. French was the only A level language offered. At AS there were 10 of them, but to progress to A2 a D was required and only half of them met that, then three more dropped it (they were the last year to do four AS) as they’d only got Cs/Ds and had done better in other subjects. She got an A and her one classmate got an A, so technically excellent results... but I think that was down to the girls’ hard work as they only had 3 lessons a week (every other subject has 5) and they both got As/As in all their subjects so were both just high achievers/hard workers.

In DD2’s GCSE year of 300 there was one French class of 31 pupils, and one Arabic class of 15 pupils. So that’s about 40 different pupils as quite a few did two languages, which is a tiny percentage. For her AS level French there are 6 of them (and again they get less lessons - 4 a week) and for AS Arabic there are 4 of them - they get 5 lessons across the fortnight, half that of every other subject. I think her year 12 group size is similar to DD1’s - 150/160. Languages are pretty unpopular here - as I said upthread, the most popular A level choices are probably sociology, psychology, business studies, and media. Sciences are somewhat popular, as is geography. English Lit is not really - just one class of 12 of them. DD has chosen generally unfavourable subjects

And don’t worry about any hi-jacking goodbyestranger - I’m also interested in your DD and disappointed she’s being dissuaded from languages. I’m very much enjoying hearing other people’s experiences and advice.

Kittiesinsane don’t worry - none of DD’s class have French relatives/a French background/regular French holidays either. One of them is bilingual English and Polish, one speaks Arabic at home and two Urdu. The remaining two are my DD (who’s previously spent 5 days in France) and a Scottish girl who moved down here in year 8. Don’t know about her holiday destinations but her Scottish accent is slightly present even when she speaks French apparently