New GCSEs - do DDs grades rule anywhere out?

[PancakeMum6]

DD did very well in her GCSEs (best in her school) but she’s at an underperforming comp so it’s hard to compare. As they don’t sit AS levels these will be the only grades the universities will see, so we’re trying to work out if her grades are ‘good enough’ for us to bother looking at Oxbridge/Durham/UCL/Bristol etc. as there’s lots of conflicting information. We want to work out where realistic universities are before starting on the open day process!

She’s doing A levels in English Lit, Arabic and French, and she wants to study either French and Arabic, French and English, or French and another language at beginner level.

At GCSE she got
A*s - Arabic, media.
9s - English Lit, maths, French.
9-8 in combined science.
8s - art, English lang.

She’s been reading all sorts about “percentages of As” and can’t tell how the new “8s” are considered. At her school they were described as high As/low As.

[Xenia]

The popular choices are probably not unusual fora state non selective school as they are the non facilitating subject / easier ones and not wrong that those children do them; but those who are going to get high grades hopefully know some subjects are better regarded than others and will help their university entrance more.

[Everincreasingfrequency]

"If the playing field was levelled though, it shouldn’t put anyone off. That would be the point. We are giving up on languages when you could argue we need them the most."

I don't think you could ever truly level the playing field unless you made the A level boundaries criteria rather than norm referenced - with the criteria decided by reference to non native speakers expected attainment. Probably not a genuinely level field even then but at least the non native speakers would not be positively disadvantaged by the effect of native speakers on normative grade boundaries.

Does it matter that not many non native speakers are doing mfl at A level or degree? I do think it's a great shame for them personally if they don't do their preferred subject because of this perception - and yes I've heard of this happening. But in terms of whether the economy needs many language students - not so sure. How many language graduates do use their languages? Genuinely don't know, given that English is spoken so widely.

(Not to say it isn't a huge loss in terms of learning particular skills, learning about the culture etc - but I'm not sure that there is a measurable economic loss. Although I realise that is not what education is about!)

[sendsummer]

A random flick around the Oxford college websites suggests that academia seems to be predominantly the preserve native speakers
No offence but I would hope and expect university MFLs to be taught by native speakers predominantly, particularly the language classes.
Not surprising that top universities recruit native speakers as their academics. There are a lot of international academics in other subjects as well. It does n’t mean they can over select students speaking their own languages.

What I think (anecdotally) is perhaps more frequent than native speakers studying their own language are bilingual (or multilingual) students applying to study a different MFL. I do know a fair number of examples of those. Such students are certainly well ahead in picking up fluency with their linguistic background. They also don’t have the qualms of many typical British students in being shy about practising oral skills.

For those whose DCs want a bit of immersion on the cheap, listening to the radio or even getting some of the European TV channels can help.

[PancakeMum6]

Xenia well I suppose an A in business is a good sight more useful than a D in history! I like the broader selection of A levels that veers away from ‘traditional’ academic subjects - a lot of the content is far more applicable to real life.

Everincreasingfrequency I suppose a lot of the degree is about literature/culture too, and the same essay writing skills as any humanity, so they benefit from the same skill set. DD’s godmother did Russian and French at university and now works for the EU in Luxembourg so definitely uses her languages! That’s only anecdotal though - I’ve no idea statistically. I don’t think DD is looking for degrees based on job opportunities - she just wants to study what she’s interested in and see where it takes her as she doesn’t have any long term career goals. Teaching or TEFL have popped up, as have various lines of humanitarian work, being a detective inspector, and working in sports coaching so I’m not sure she’s ready to narrow off yet

[PancakeMum6]

And I definitely second the radio/television advice - DD says you can never run out of “Plus belle la vie” episodes... and she listens to a lot of French music, and reads lots of books in French, or watches French films/puts on French subtitles. She’s also lucky to have DD1 who also did French at A level so they often chat to each other in French to practise conversation and watch stuff together.

[BubblesBuddy]

6th forms everywhere tend to have minimum entry requirements for A level students. That’s to ensure they have a reasonable chance of getting a decent A level. That’s not considered selective. Selective schools have selection via exams at year 7 or 9. The 6th form requirement might be 6 x grade 7s or higher in the subjects you want to take if you are a new entrant. Over subscribed schools can be very choosy.

KittiesInsane: my DH has a French O level - I don’t have a MFL O level! We have a DD who is great at languages. Her school spotted this at y8. We hadn’t! She had not done any MFL at primary. If DDs have a flair for something you have no expertise in, you can only leave it to the school and support them as best you can. DD enjoyed fantastic teaching by an Italian native speaker at school and French conversation was with a native speaker.

Although DD went to a private school she didn’t encounter native speakers in her languages among the student body. The native speakers were taking exams in Arabic and Mandarin and now Russian! She didn’t encounter this phenomenon until university. However she kept going but non native speakers certainly cannot coast in the year abroad. That’s when they really make up the ground, as the ab initio students do.

I too noticed the huge number of academics at Oxford who are native speakers. It’s pretty universal at top universities. I also take the point about A level grades for humanities courses at Oxford - I think some people think A*s are required when they are not.

[PancakeMum6]

The 6th form requirement might be 6 x grade 7s or higher in the subjects you want to take if you are a new entrant.

That’s crazy! I’m assuming these schools must be in London areas? Around here even the grammar school don’t ask for that much. DD’s school has always just asked for Cs (now 5s) in the subjects pupils want to study at A level, plus a C/4 in English and maths. I know the grammar school wants 6s in A level subjects and 5 9-5s including English and maths but that’s the highest I’ve heard of, and I know if someone has been at the school since they were 11 they often let people in with dropped grades.

[AtiaoftheJulii]

Yes, having native speakers teaching the language or literature or culture is seen as a good thing, and universities will be proud to say they have them. Although dd did say being taught (Castilian) Spanish by an Argentinean tutor was erm, interesting!

Realised the other day that she has her Twitter set to French, lol. (She's currently in France.) She has always followed a variety of people tweeting in the languages she's trying to acquire. There are so many ways now that you can immerse yourself as much as possible.

[goodbyestranger]

Yes sendsummer I did think as I looked, that the native speaking academics was a different thing, and not an issue, certainly not from the perspective of the student being taught. But it's striking that so few academics in the faculty read MFL in a UK university to begin with and so for those who warm to academic life, it looks as though the doors are narrower there too.

[Everincreasingfrequency]

"I too noticed the huge number of academics at Oxford who are native speakers. It’s pretty universal at top universities."

Interesting - does that mean it's harder to have a career in academia if you do MFL? I realise not many want this! but it may be another factor in the melting pot when choosing a degree subject.

Students are aware of this issue (whether real or imagined) and parents as well - I think some parents do discourage their dc from doing an MFL for this reason. I think if govt wanted to boost MFL A level take up that is one of the factors to address - even if the perception of disadvantage is wrong, it is there.

[Everincreasingfrequency]

Cross posted goodbye! yes if choosing mfl might narrow your chance of an academic career that would be a significant disadvantage for a few students (and irrelevant to most, it's true!)
As you say, it is a shame for the student to be deterred from studying what they love and are good at - not sure there is a simple solution.

[goodbyestranger]

And I was looking at native speakers specialising in literature and culture rather than language. I only clicked on a few colleges to be fair, but Brasenose was first and I hit a high score there!

[goodbyestranger]

Everincreasingfrequency - I agree I'm getting quite niche!

[Everincreasingfrequency]

Niche yes, but for the particular student, it's important, so something to bear in mind!

I think the 'why are we in the UK so bad at languages and why doesn't anyone want to study them' debate has not really taken this issue into account until very recently. Probably because afaik it used not to be an issue at all (although perhaps it was and we didn't know about it when at school in 70s/80s?).

[BubblesBuddy]

I don’t think it’s harder to get into academia - but just at the top flight institutions! Many linguists go into a whole variety of jobs. DD would have run a mile from academia! I found it fairly amusing that one of her lecturers tried to get her to do a masters in an area of literature that needed further investigation. DD was interested in it and had done very well in the module (French literature of the Crusades) but wanted to be a barrister more!

I’ve just looked at my two local grammar schools. 60 MFL A level entries out of 669 at the boys’ school and 34 out of 589 at the girls’ school. I thought it would be the other way around!

Pancake: the 6x7 grade is for a elective independent school. When DD got a place there, (didn’t go in the end) it was 6 x A. If they have high achievers and intend to keep up standards and have more applicants than places, they are asking for high grades! It matches the attainment of many of their existing students.

[Xenia]

Yes, for good private schools which are academically selective at 11+ you would usually need an A (8) in GCSE in the subject you want to do at A level as A levels are quite hard and you might find them difficult if you are not picking your best subjects. We don't expect non selective privagte or state schools however to have similar requirements. However it is important those at non selective schools do know what competition they face in the jobs market from those from selective grammars and private schools who have got traditional sunbjects with high grades. (I certainly agree an A in business studies may well be more helpful than a D in history but don't expect employers to be conned into thinking certain easier GCSEs are worth as much as harder ones).

[goodbyestranger]

Interesting Bubbles. Our 2018 stats were 11 entries out of 459 (co-ed grammar). So 2.4% of entries compared to 7.5% up country. That doesn't reflect very well!

[AtiaoftheJulii]

You made me curious Bubbles - 29/582 for our local boys grammar, 27/421 for the girls. The boys have a choice of three languages, the girls only two. (Plus Latin at both - 10 boys, 5 girls.)

I wonder if there's something about MFL that means students aren't as interested in research/academia as students of other subjects perhaps. Are the linguists more interested in the skill of language acquisition? A 17 year old applying for chemistry, say, will have heard of inspiring scientists, and might have already thought that they'd be interested in doing research. To find similar role models for linguists seems trickier, they would be much more niche I think.

[goodbyestranger]

Our (superselective) grammar certainly doesn't ask for an 8 Xenia, other than for FM. It's 7 for Biology, Chemistry, Physics and Maths; 8 for FM and everything else is 6.

[Xenia]

It will depend on the school. IN schools where most children get A or A at GCSE or whatever that equivalent now is then expecting they do A levels in subjects where they got As is not that surprising. My daughter's school this yea had "77.5% of all entries to the newly graded GCSE were awarded a 9 – the top grade which surpasses the old A grade".

No one expects non selective schools to have those results but A levels remain quite hard to it can be better that those who won't do well at them don't even start them. I am sure someone who got a or 6 upwards will be fine though.

[goodbyestranger]

Xenia your daughter's old school is a good enough school to know that 9 doesn't 'surpass' an old A*, however much their marketing team want to beef up the glossy brochure.

[sendsummer]

I guess non native speakers progressing in MFLs academia would be focussed in sub disciplines of literature analysis requiring excellent English as well as a command of the MFL rather than teaching the language component.

For those whose DCs are seriously looking at MFLs at eg Oxbridge, I found this Oxford examiner MFL report on a FOI site (from a search for some facts about the scale at university of the problem discussed ).
www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/501756/response/1257989/attach/5/FINAL%20FHS%20ML%20EXAMINERS%20REPORT%202018.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1
which gives an idea of distribution of languages, firsts awarded etc as well as what type of modules are required and available including oral part.
There was a version with names in for the prizes and there were certainly some suspicious possible bilingual names (first names are often a give away even if surnames are n’t) as well as quite a few British names.
I am told that some universities could / do attempt to screen out native MFL applicants by asking which passports they hold. If that is the case, that may become a more effective tool as increasing numbers of DCs will want the advantage of an active EU passport if they have the family links.

[Xenia]

I thought 9 was brought in as A was not enough to distinguish the best from the even better. Some As would be 9 level and some 8 surely depending on your percentage mark?

[ErrolTheDragon]

I got the impression that quite a lot of language-based research in top unis would be focussed on mediaeval or earlier forms - studying old documents and texts. Being a native speaker of the modern language maybe isn't so much of an advantage there?

[howabout]

Been following this thread with interest as I have always thought being a non-native speaker makes MFL problematic in the UK (ironically DH learned French before English but is no longer fluent as his DM was making sure his English was not confused - this is not uncommon). I find it difficult to believe that top flight Unis could get away with discriminating against native speakers especially in languages like French and Arabic. This would seriously disadvantage most of the BAME candidates at my DDs' school. Most of them also meet the contextual offers criteria.