New GCSEs - do DDs grades rule anywhere out?

[PancakeMum6]

DD did very well in her GCSEs (best in her school) but she’s at an underperforming comp so it’s hard to compare. As they don’t sit AS levels these will be the only grades the universities will see, so we’re trying to work out if her grades are ‘good enough’ for us to bother looking at Oxbridge/Durham/UCL/Bristol etc. as there’s lots of conflicting information. We want to work out where realistic universities are before starting on the open day process!

She’s doing A levels in English Lit, Arabic and French, and she wants to study either French and Arabic, French and English, or French and another language at beginner level.

At GCSE she got
A*s - Arabic, media.
9s - English Lit, maths, French.
9-8 in combined science.
8s - art, English lang.

She’s been reading all sorts about “percentages of As” and can’t tell how the new “8s” are considered. At her school they were described as high As/low As.

[goodbyestranger]

Also, to be cheap, some DC don't want to have one hand tied behind their back in getting a top class of degree, because top degrees are useful in a lot of professions going forward.

[PancakeMum6]

my dd was told don't bother with imperial because she got a c in French despite have 4 A's at AS level and 8 at a/a/9/8 at GCSEs.

I’ve just thought of something - girl DD1 knows got a D in GCSE language (severely dyslexic) and her GCSE grades were essentially As in relevant subjects, As in most others and Bs in essay based and PE. She also got a B in AS physics. She’s in her second year at Imperial now doing Design Engineering...

This is why I’m trying to canvass so much information before we start looking at DD’s universities - there’s so much conflicting information!

I suppose it could be argued that DD is at a big advantage when it comes to Arabic. However partly why she’s thinking about applying for English and French or French and a language ab initio - she’s not sure she needs degree level Arabic given she already reads texts in it, speaks colloquially in the language, and is often quite immersed in a lot of the culture. French currently interests her more because it’s more exotic and less familiar.

DD1 has applied for liberal arts at half of her unis so she can do a variety of modules, language included. Her friend does Spanish and ab initio Portuguese and last year was able to take some art history modules too, but DD1 wants to be able to consider a range of French/ancient history/classics/history/English/philosophy/ab initio language. I think DD2 will probably stick with a tighter language/literature focus.

[clary]

Goodbye yes I know there are a lot more... to be fair tho, not many schools offer those subjects as mainstream Apart from DT this was sort of my point. Op's dd us unusual sul in taking two I reformed subjects this summer. Not an issue tho op!

[goodbyestranger]

clary your school may not offer many - but in the wider world I have to say that Ancient History, Classical Civilisation, Business Studies, Economics, Sociology and Psychology as well as D&T are really very common subjects. I think you may be generalising from the particular!

[PancakeMum6]

Media is a very popular GCSE and A level option at all schools here! As are sociology and business studies. Things like classics/ancient history etc aren’t offered and politics, economics and psychology are only available at A level.

[sollyfromsurrey]

Yeo, she will be fine to apply anywhere. Oxford ask for minimum 6 x A*s but I don't know how that translates in the 8-9 area. But in any case, from a low performing school she will more than likely get an interview. Everywhere is her grades are fine regardless of coming from a good or poor school she's done well and unis will see it has been under her own steam that she's excelled. Bristol offer 'contextual' offers to people with various disadvantages. The offers made a much lower. She'll be a strong candidate.

[sollyfromsurrey]

You will want to check up on the school though. I have heard of poor performing schools not writing strong references because they don't have much experience of applications to top Uni's.

[drivinmecrazy]

Nothing useful to add, but amy following this thread with interest.
DD1 is hoping to study for a JH in English and spanish. She's on the cusp of submitting her application (if she's ever happy enough with her PS )

[drivinmecrazy]

Meant to add that it's been interesting to follow this thread because the study of MFL at university seems to be quite a minority, and it's very difficult to find discussions on MN for those with DC following this path.

[clary]

Haha OK fair enough. Business I'll give you, it's done at a fair few schools. No schools in this area (cuty/county) that I know about (quite a few as I was a teacher) offer media or ancient history etc at GCSE. More's the pity - I am all for a wider curriculum but most kids I know seem to be choosing about one-two options thanks to the obsession with the Ebacc. So mostly PE/tech/art/drama and even those are getting squeezed

[Xenia]

A tripcal academic private school or grammar school child would have something like
English lit, english lang, maths, 2 or 3 sciences, a foreign language and probably geography and history (or at least one of those) and possibly a second language too - that is what i did (mine were French and German) and then I did music for fun and others did things like RE or art. In other words 8 core traditional GCSEs which of course music and business aren't. To have done both media and art and neither of history nor geography would be unusual traditionally in the UK but not at all unlikely in a poor performing area.

Despite that even if we strip out media sh still has 8 or 9 strong GCSEs so I would apply to Oxbridge (one of the two) and then perhaps places like Durham, Bristol with may be Nottingham as back up in case her A level grades aren't that good. The original choie include UCL is wise but I would proably just add an easier one. Oxbridge even for the very best is a bit of a lottery but have a god rather than be suicidal if you don't get it and then have the others too in reserve.

Also she is going to do two facilitating subjects s or even possibly 3 if arabic is counted as such for an arabic speaker - www.clare.cam.ac.uk/subjectchoice-alevelchoice/ so that's fine too.

She should also practise for Oxbridge specific tests as well.
She sounds a very strong candidate to me. Also she should think about careers afterwards and work backwards as the institution and subjects can determine which careers are possible.

[PancakeMum6]

Just to reiterate - the school itself is very good. Their results are poor due to intake.

drivinmecrazy DD1 submitted her application last week for various courses (Liberal Arts being her ideal) and will be doing modules in languages (either post A level French or ab initio Latin or Portuguese, depending on where she ends up). Good luck to your DD!

Xenia at DDs’ school you can do a maximum of one of history or geography, one of art or music and a maximum of two languages (but the only compulsory subjects are single science, maths, and English x2). GCSEs in sociology, business studies, media, RE, child development and BTECs in ICT, sport, and performing arts are all more popular as options. I think computer science GCSE is an option now too but it wasn’t when DD was there.

[sendsummer]

PancakeMum6 she can’t be at that much of an advantage for speaking arabic since I presume that her arab speaking friends don’t converse naturally in MSA but use their home ammiya.

To be fair to bilinguals, very few brought up in the UK will have writing skills that equal their aural proficiency so degree level translation will be testing, as will literature analysis in English or their second language. You can be bilingual but not a natural translator.

I don’t think a pupil should be put off doing a subject they would like most just because there are others who have a natural advantage. That could apply to other subjects as well when the family includes teachers or academics or even siblings at degree level in whatever subject.
Loads of British with no family background in a MFL get top grades at A level and first class degrees in tough MFLs.

[LoniceraJaponica]

“I disagree. A level predictions for recruiters are more important than GCSE grades”

This ^^
DD’s boyfriend achieved just one A* at GCSE, but had an Oxford offer because her aced the HAT test, wrote a brilliant personal statement, and the sample of his work was excellent. He knew that if he got an interview he would get an offer because he was passionate about his subject.

“but in the wider world I have to say that Ancient History, Classical Civilisation, Business Studies, Economics, Sociology and Psychology as well as D&T are really very common subjects.”

I doubt that they are all available in most comprehensive school 6th forms. They may be more common in grammar schools and large 6th form colleges. DD’s school only offered Business studies, Psychology and DT (textiles) at A level out of those subjects.

“Oxford ask for minimum 6 x A*s”

Is that for languages? They didn’t for history.

[clary]

Lonicera that quote about ancient history etc being very common was talking about GCSE, not a level.

I know quite a few schools that offer psychology or sociology for a level - but really very few (actually none I know of in my area) that offer them or anything else on that list apart from Business at GCSE.

[LoniceraJaponica]

Sorry, I misread the post. DD's school didn't offer ancient history, classical civilisation, sociology or psychology at GCSE. And I suspect that most bog standard comprehensives don't. The poster's children all went to grammar school and most, if not all, went to Oxbridge BTW.

[Xenia]

It is certainly worth those picking GCSEs to look at the subjects on offer at the top state grammar schools to give an idea of what those kind of children do. This is quite a good list from a state school www.hbschool.org.uk/userfiles/henriettamvc/pdf/academic-life/exam-results/2018/GCSE_Results_Oct_2018.pdf
Anyway the original poster's are fine so worth a go at some good universities and see what happens.

[IrmaFayLear]

He knew that if he got an interview he would get an offer because he was passionate about his subject. . It's good he got an offer, but he was rather counting his chickens. I don't think Oxbridge feel obliged to offer every "passionate" candidate a place.

The native language issue is interesting. Back in my day (80s) plenty of people did French/German and there was no question of avoiding studying MFL at A Level because of native speakers. Now, both ds and now dd have given French a swerve - in spite of being very good at it - because rather a lot of entente cordiale seems to have taken place round here a few years ago resulting in many half-French pupils at the school. Dd's bf has a French mother; her surname does not give away this fact.

It would in theory be good to study what you liked, but in a percentages game you don't want to be disadvantaging yourself by taking a subject where the top 20% of grades will be nabbed by bilingual students.

[sendsummer]

by taking a subject where the top 20% of grades will be nabbed by bilingual students.. Is this a fact?
Most DCs brought up in the UK with one parent from another country have quite limited speaking vocabulary for their second language, let alone written skills. Unless of course they have attended a bilingual school programme.

I would n’t be telling my DCs not do A level maths because their best friend who is also doing A level maths has a father is a professor in maths or another friend’s parent is an A level maths teacher.

[goodbyestranger]

Lonicera why do you feel the need to keep telling other posters that my DC went to grammar school etc?! I don't mind at all but I'm not quite sure why its relevant. Grammars have the same financial constraints (arguably more) as all schools in the state sector. They tend to offer fewer subjects, not more.

Our (grammar!) school offers D&T and Business at GCSE, so those were the two unreformed subjects this year, but the local comprehensives (one of which is admittedly very large) offer many of the subjects listed.

Lonicera you're also generalising from the particular: your DD's boyfriend was unusual for Oxford in getting an offer with a single A at GCSE. He obviously did well enough in the HAT to overcome his lack of A at GCSE but to be completely fair he didn't 'ace' the HAT in any exceptional way because Oxford refused to take him when he missed his grades - and the lack of A* may well have played into that refusal too.

[LoniceraJaponica]

Actually goodbye, he dropped grades in 2 subjects, one of them being the degree subject.

[goodbyestranger]

Yes Lonicera - not good.

[nosoncalangaeaf]

It's actually very very very easy for bilingual children to get an A* in a language a level.

As you are studying it to a second language level in the UK, for something like French. Therefore much more basic than if you were to study it at the same level of say English etc.

[BubblesBuddy]

Pancake: might I suggest you look at the modules on offer at UCL, Bristol, Oxford etc for languages and you will see the depth of study that is required. It really isn’t all language. There is a rigorous academic approach to the culture and that includes literature, history, arts etc. The options are very broad. She cannot possibly be near that level by chatting to friends and not reading literature.

The children who are bilingual and then study the “second” language at university do have switched on parents. I have certainly been aware of children who have spent the whole summer with relatives in the country of a parent. They are not just conversationally good - they are immersed. When a parent has a high level of education and actually teaches the language, their children are clearly advantaged and certainly can do the literature and art modules. These topics have already been part of their lives. There are other children I have met who have struggled to learn the language of a parent and certainly couldn’t do it at degree level. I believe the bilingual children still need to be bright because just picking up a language isn’t enough. You have to write essays.

I don’t think 20% of the top grades necessarily go to native speakers. The language component can be fairly small. Neither are students examined on language acquisition during their year aboard. The students who are bright, are native speakers and have a good grasp of the academic side of MFL will probably do very well but are not guaranteed to be the best.

Pancake: In terms of employment, I think it’s better to do joint honours MFL rather than English and French. English is harder to get into at top universities but there are huge numbers of English grads. MFL students are really wanted. If you are the complete package, you can do well at MFL and some universities don’t give 20% of degrees as firsts! Arabic would be considered a very desirable (and difficult) language.

[sendsummer]

nosoncangalaeaf I maintain that true French bilinguals are rare in the English exam system and even rarer choosing that as an A level. Obviously a complete bilingual would find A level easy. I also know of quite a few non native speakers getting top grades in for example I A level mandarin and European MFLs so it is a shame to run scared of MFLs because of a feared bilingual spectre.
I agree with Bubblesbuddy that a few parents do strategically plan for their DCs to aim for better universities by applying to study their other language. I also agree that despite potentially getting an Oxbridge degree or equivalent, it is a short sighted ploy for their DCs’ future and skill set.