Physics vs engineering - dd starting to think about uni courses & would welcome thoughts

[Sadik]

DD's just in year 12, so plenty of time, but is starting to think about what direction she wants to go post A levels. Previously she was looking at physics, but is wondering whether engineering might suit her better, and I said I'd ask the MN massive for any thoughts.

She's very keen on science /maths generally, good solid GCSEs (7x A* 3xA - we're in Wales so still letter grades). Taking Maths/ FM/ Physics/ Chemistry & very much enjoying them all to date. As I say she chose her A levels thinking probably physics, but she's now wondering if she'd prefer a more practical subject.

I'd say she's not a 'natural engineer' of the always taking things apart and fixing them type, but good at creative thinking and problem solving, so I can see why it appeals. (But she's certainly not at the 'I want to do mechanical / electronic / aeronautical engineering' stage.)

We've booked to go to open days at Cardiff & Swansea uni shortly & she's planning to look at both departments, so I guess right now she's looking for any ideas / things she might be missing / questions to ask. (She's also hoping to get on an extracurricular thing at college where they have a 'real engineer' (dd's description) and a real-world problem to work on.)

Sadik I think we've had this conversation before but we must be 'local' to each other, what language is DD doing her education through, if it's a very rural, traditional, Welsh language secondary our DC's would be sharing most of their lessons .

Thank you to all the other posters, I'm enjoying riding on Sadik's coattails and lapping up all the suggestions too.

bp is ok: I do agree with what you say except one thing - grads do not have to go to large companies to get chartered quickly. My DDs company is not large and is a small to medium sized consultancy. Grad Engineers follow exactly the same training as grad engineers in a larger company. It is a well trodden path for them to get grad Engineers to chartered status. They have the breadth and quality of work and if grad engineers want to push on, they can. I totally agree with choosing Engineering degrees over others because the route to getting Chartered is much quicker. You really do not need a PhD for anything, but niche expertise is always welcome. Also, most of the Engineers working in the Environmental engineering consultancy for DH are Civils qualified, not Environmental Science qualified. It is the engineering solutions that are valued. (The EA probably has the Environmental Scientists). The pay is very good and not less than anyone else in his company. They are very in demand for their skills. Again, if you want to do this type of Engineering work, get an Engineering qualification.

Large companies tend to have their pick of grads and do not really know about smaller consultancy recruitment. Why would they? My DH would rarely see a grad with a first from Imperial. However, he is looking for more than academics and certainly many of the ex Polys are capable of producing grads that very much fit what they want. Not every grad Engineer can go to a large company and they do not have to. There is room for flair and business acumen from top to bottom. DH started his company with two engineers, a technician and a secretary. You have to be good to do that and no-one is holding your hand. In those days you could get Chartered at 24 though, as DH was. Eventually, if his engineers become Directors their earnings potential, and involvement in growing the company, is far greater than slaving away for some faceless company. However, the risks are far greater. It is an avenue that young engineers can take if they are good enough because it is exciting if you have the skills for it.

For DCs like mine, Headstart courses and similar certainly help for consolidating what they like and whether a career in engineering would attract them. My DC did a general engineering one in summer of year 11 and then Material Sciences (as also liked physical chemistry) one at Oxford in summer of year 12. Found some aspects interesting like robotics and laser technology (I think it was lasers) but realised that engineering in its ‘purest’ construction forms and the students it attracted were too practical for her. She particularly likes thinking about the big questions and the cross over with philosophy and prefers maths to lab work. She does not want a proper engineering career and does not think she has the skills required. She has n’t changed her mind yet (-although we her parents liked the idea of a ‘safe’ engineering career structure-).

company.airbus.com/careers/apprentices-and-pupils/In-the-United-Kingdom.html

There is some information here about apprenticeships (which can include a degree) plus contact information for work experience

The degree is a BEng though so it’s the long route to getting Chartered. They do employ MEng Grads with the appropriate degrees. Aeronautical/Aerospace.

MrSlant I think we have bumped into each other here before. Not the same school - dd was in the Welsh stream in a mostly English medium school that has recently lost its 6th form... (She's now in college and very happy there.)

@BubblesBuddy - I think the medium sized is OK but small can limit the exposure the grad gets. Ours move about quite a lot (we have about 16,000 staff globally) so they can work overseas, they can work out of one of our regional offices or they can stay at their base office. We have a fair number of Spaniards in our London office, working on a major project that is being built in USA. One of my grads is just back from a stint in Bermuda.

...in my youth I enjoyed having stints in the Middle East, Moscow, South Africa plus lots of meetings all over the globe. Now most def not! I am trying to edge my way towards working from home on reduced hours....I am currently working on a high profile project where I oversee the team/provide direction and get wheeled out for client meetings.

This kind of flexibility is easier to accommodate in a big company and engineering allows far more flexibility in general than most careers my friends have.

Just wanted to say well done to your DH too. Working on a project is a bit like bringing up a baby, setting up and running a successful business must be like bringing up a family.

One thing occurred to me re the requirements for physics v engineering (which isn't really relevant to the OPs DD from the sound of it but might be to someone else reading the thread) - for students who aren't in the, say , AAA and above category, my guess is that you're more likely to end up highly employable with an engineering degree from a solid uni with industry links (eg Loughborough) than by doing a physics degree. Which isn't to imply that any vanilla science degree is a bad bet especially versus non stem subjects, just that the engineering path could be better for many?

@BubblesBuddy if you're referring to the Airbus degree, they do fund Masters for some apprentices, plus of course you have no student debt. Although competition for places on the higher apprenticeships fierce.
But it was the contact details to use for the work experience that is the most relevant really. Just for a general engineering overview.

I do agree that work experience is very useful.

I think DH often wonders what life would have been like if he had gone to a big consultancy or firm. However the chance came up to make a go of a small start up and he took it. We like to travel and I think it would have been exciting. You are of course correct that a big company offers a whole different experience, but not everyone will be get taken on by the big companies. I am really just trying to say that all is not lost if you don't get onto those grad schemes. There are alternatives.

I also agree, Errol, that engineering degrees are very good options for those without stellar A levels. With a BEng, the route to Chartered status takes longer or the Engineer may be happy to stick at Incorprated level. However, better earnings, as an employee, come with the former for obvious reasons. Any potential student who thinks they might like engineering, look at what is available through the Council of Engineering and see what may be of interest. Then try and get work experience. Being informed helps with the university application process and sifting through the courses.

Engineering is such an enormous field. DH is a software engineer with a degree and PhD in astrophysics. I work in Pharms and we have lots of chemical engineers here that work closely with us scientists when we design the drug manufacturing processes, there's a lot of overlap and I know people who have moved from R&D to engineering and vice versa.

Just remembered I considered engineering as a kid but decided to go for pure science (biochemistry) but actually I'm happiest at the most practical end of science and definitely would have been happy as an engineer. Agree that there's lots of practical and people skills required in the job. The quiet nerd theory is nothing like the world either DH or I occupy.

Errol as a parent I'm very happy if dd is looking at a field where there are lots of good degrees asking for different levels of results that lead to a genuinely useful qualification. I feel like it really takes the pressure off eg as compared to some of dd's friends who are thinking about medicine where it is stellar grades or nothing.

Absolutely!.

Though actually the A level grades required for medicine aren't as stellar (no stars!) at most med schools as those for the top physics and engineering degrees ... the pressure is more to get an offer at all because of the high applicant to place ratio.

With engineering (and probably physics too) they can pick a nice spread of 5 for UCAS and if they've got good predicted grades they're fairly certain to get at least 4 offers.

as someone with a child studying medicine - I wish they'd done engineering :) We've watched recent graduates with engineering degrees walk into highly paid jobs, not so rapid or so well paid for physics degrees. So getting some work experience and seeing if it appeals would be very wise.

If her school have little tradition of sending people to Cambridge apply now for the shadowing scheme. www.applytocambridge.com/shadowing/apply/

To be honest, Engineers do not need to be Cambridge, Oxford or Imperial grads. Don’t pile on the pressure to get into these universities if it seems like a long-shot. Go for it if is sensible. There are excellent engineering courses out there so DCs should get offers as Errol says. Dropping down a rung (or even two) really will not hold you back in the real world!

I can only speak for Civil Engineering, but as long as your degree is accredited to the Institution of Civil Engineers (or appropriate professional body) and has industrial links and good destination outcomes with organisations with a training plan route for graduates through to Chartership, then no one really care if it’s Oxford, Cambridge, Imperial or anywhere else. Most of the people I have/do work with are Nottigham? Newcastle, Manchester or Leeds graduates. All the organisations I have worked for are prestigious consultancies, and now government (Defra). Chartership matters rather than Alma Mater. The Chartership route is related to where you study of course, but it’s wider than C, O or I.

Just been chatting to a friend who says in his day Durham and Newcastle were considered very good options & notably better than Cardiff/Swansea for example. I suspect dd might rule out N/castle on grounds of being a (very) big city, but is Durham worth suggesting for a visit? (He also mentioned Bristol which is rather more accessable!)

Newcastle is really not a very big city!

The problem is that “in his day” isn’t today! Cardiff is possibly better than Swansea but not necessarily. Bristol is very good. There is no need to go to Durham or Newcastle but Durham is the smaller of the two. What about Nottingham, Sheffield and Southampton? All are great for Engineering. Most universities have a university area. You don’t feel exposed to a big city and you don’t have to be.

Sadik Durham is a very studenty town and the University has a collegiate system like Oxbridge. Also does a general engineering degree. Has a lot of Oxbridge rejects as well!

My DD wasn't convinced by Durham for engineering TBH (different story for physics and some other subjects!).
Durham is a very studenty town and the University has a collegiate system like Oxbridge someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd got the impression that 'collegiate' unis other than Oxbridge, the colleges were accommodation and social but not involved in the academic side in the same way?

Bristol somehow managed to be unimpressive on the open day we went to, despite its overall good reputation. The London unis were ruled out because she didn't want to live in London.

So, her final spread of 5 was Cambridge, Southampton, Manchester, Sheffield and Nottingham. Other places considered were Newcastle, Surrey, Birmingham and Loughborough.

I hate the term Oxford reject. For Engineering that’s no bad thing. At Durham you are taught by the faculty. It is not a bonus to do general engineering either. The vast majority of students don’t do this and of those that do, being an Engineer isn’t always top of their employment goals as discussed earlier. Employers really don’t value general engineering above any other engineering course. Just because DCs have chosen it, it doesn’t make it a better course. Bristol is fine for engineering if you know what type of engineering you want, eg Aero, Civils, Mechanical etc.

It is not a bonus to do general engineering either.

I had a thread a couple of years ago garnering opinions on the pros and cons of gen eng at Cambridge vs EEE at Southampton- it's an excellent apple v an excellent orange and DD was really torn, our view was that there really was no wrong choice.

So, as someone who brings grads into a major company this is how it works for us
Grads apply to central grad recruitment
Each department state how many they will take
Recruitment sift to select viable candidates- degree class, work experience, personal statement, university (in that order ish - if your degree was from somewhere they accepted CDD we would know.....we are kind of using the Unis to be the first selectors )
On line 'test'
One/half day 'interviews' -team work exercise
Recommendations made to managers
Individual interview with hiring manager
Job offer

The first sift looks at grade, then work experience then uni
The next sift (on line test) looks at critical thinking
The half day part of the interview looks at how they behave in a team
The last hurdle is more about what the applicant wants from working in our company

.., so essence, to get through the door you need a minimum of a 2.1 from a decent uni. Alternatively you need 2:1 with great work experience from a less good uni
The (really really really easy) online test checks that you aren't an idiot. The half day checks that you aren't obnoxious and can work in a team

After chartership no one cares about your GCSEs, A Levels, University attended nor degree class.

That's from one of the 'top' companies in the sector globally

For the top UK companies you DONT need Oxbridge. You DO need a decent Uni (which doesn't always equate to RG) and you do need a 2,1
Long term you can gain chartership from any medium sized company at the same speed and the likelihood of getting a job is possibly higher her

Once you have your foot under the door it's what you do with it.

I hate the term Oxford reject

Durham is my local uni and we take a lot of graduates from there. Freshers week apparently consists of them all saying 'so where were you rejected from?' It's a bit of a joke there. Excellent graduates as well.