Physics vs engineering - dd starting to think about uni courses & would welcome thoughts

[Sadik]

DD's just in year 12, so plenty of time, but is starting to think about what direction she wants to go post A levels. Previously she was looking at physics, but is wondering whether engineering might suit her better, and I said I'd ask the MN massive for any thoughts.

She's very keen on science /maths generally, good solid GCSEs (7x A* 3xA - we're in Wales so still letter grades). Taking Maths/ FM/ Physics/ Chemistry & very much enjoying them all to date. As I say she chose her A levels thinking probably physics, but she's now wondering if she'd prefer a more practical subject.

I'd say she's not a 'natural engineer' of the always taking things apart and fixing them type, but good at creative thinking and problem solving, so I can see why it appeals. (But she's certainly not at the 'I want to do mechanical / electronic / aeronautical engineering' stage.)

We've booked to go to open days at Cardiff & Swansea uni shortly & she's planning to look at both departments, so I guess right now she's looking for any ideas / things she might be missing / questions to ask. (She's also hoping to get on an extracurricular thing at college where they have a 'real engineer' (dd's description) and a real-world problem to work on.)

My DD is just about to start her second year MEng at Cambridge. The course is general engineering but they end up specialising - she's inclined to the electrical/electronic side (her other uni choices were EEE).
Others have already made lots of the points I was going to (smallpeice, headstart, uni open days ). The extracurricular thing you mentioned sounds excellent!

I'd say she's not a 'natural engineer' of the always taking things apart and fixing them type, but good at creative thinking and problem solving,
Sounds like mine... she did build some robots but they were more 'design and build challenges' rather than fiddling around for the heck of it. (Is there a robotics club at your DDs school? That combines elements of mechanics, electronics and coding)

Engineering usually means industry placements
Yes - some do a whole year out but mostly it's summer placements. DD had a 12 week internship on the other side of the country this year. But there were quite a few physicists there too. There are overlaps between some of the fields of engineering and physics, comp sci, information....

I remember hearing once perhaps even on here that engineering is more 'how' and physics 'why'. Physicists pursue their subject because they are most interested in finding out more about the big questions.

What makes your DD most enthusiastic, practical problem solving and designing or studying the fundamentals of physics?
It is of course possible to do physics as a first degree then use the tools learn in it for postgraduate studies or work in engineering.

@BubblesBuddy Do you know what Bath's reputation is with employers? My ds liked it very much on their open day

Bath is excellent. Their Architecture course is top notch too. All Engineering grads are highly employable.

Employers do like graduate engineers who have had some work experience. Often Engineers who have just been at university and have not been in the “real world” have not actually solved “real world “ problems or dealt with clients. The difficulties that projects throw up that require negotiation and expertise are often not the same as simulated university ones. Also money is involved. That means that solutions have to be cost effective as well as safe and deliverable. I haven’t looked at the courses at Bath in detail, but any links with industry or consultants should be welcomed by students.

My DHs company goes to careers evenings at their local schools. Interestingly, the girls grammar has never invited them! Just the Co Ed and the boy’s Grammars! However careers evenings should be a good source of information and see if local consultants will offer taster work experience.

I should say that dd isn't wedded to being in Wales (she wants to go to the open day at Cambridge) - and tbh we're already 3 hours from Cardiff, so it's not a question of wanting to be right near home. It's just that all she probably wouldn't choose to go somewhere like Newcastle or York unless there was a very strong reason for doing so.

I think the choices that have to be made in Engineering is whether to do General Enguneering first and then specialise, or do a recognised engineering discipline right from the start. The second route does assume you know which route you want. However you will spend four years doing what is still a massive subject. Civils will incorporate structural engineering for example. Fewer universities do general engineering. Also lots of those courses produce grads that go into the City and never become Engineers at all.

If she's interested in Cambridge, that seemed to be the only place my DD was convinced she could really generalise then specialise (I'm not sure if this is correct but she wasn't taken by any of the other gen. eng courses.).

One place which is excellent for both physics and engineering which might be reasonably accessible from Wales for checking out both depts. on open days is Manchester. Birmingham has a very good physics dept too.

My DHs company goes to careers evenings at their local schools. Interestingly, the girls grammar has never invited them!

That's such a shame (DDs girls GS was very good at getting a range including places offering engineering apprenticeships) - the staff at your local school may simply be as ignorant as so many of the general public about engineering options, perhaps your DHs company should approach them?

Great thread OP, DS2 is taking the same A levels as your DD and has similar interests. We need a secret MN lapel pin for open days as it seems we will be in the same places (also Wales based, love still having letter GCSEs, I'm very old fashioned).

I've recommended DS2 looks at Aber uni as well which seems a weird one but it's just come out incredibly well in the Times uni guide. I know a lot of very bright children who are studying/have studied in the engineering department. There's an amazing robotics course that has sent projects to the moon (or mars, I keep forgetting). Anyway, have to dash but I will be back later, this is the perfect thread for all the things I've been thinking about this week!

Also don't rule out big companies. Although on they seem large and faceless, in reality they often have regional offices which are more like 'families' but still offer the career opportunities of a big company along with the options of relocation and travel.
If your DD enjoys finding practical solutions to real world problems then engineering is the way to go.
I work for one of the 'big ones' so feel to PM me if she has any specific questions/wants advice.

My DS is studying Civil engineering. He followed a similar path via maths and physics. We went to a few open days and looked at all different courses in engineering he liked civil as there are so many different fields in it.
We looked at
Edinburgh his second choice
Nottingham
Surrey
Manchester they start as general engineers and then specialise.
Southampton
Salford where he goes, they have a really high graduate employment record.
He discounted Cambridge, Oxford and Imperial as he thought they weren't practical enough.
Bear in mind that civil engineers end up working for banks and other financial institutions as well.
He is looking at a work placement with one of the companies building Tottenhams new stadium.

I think I'd disagree with Physics always being why and engineering how - for instance today I'll be working on a problem with my engineering team (hardware, software, firmware) where I define the clinical impact, how people would want to work and the outcome required. I've calculated risks from different scenarios - the engineering team will prototype things, we'll work with the human factors engineers to find what actual humans find best to interact with, then once built the test engineers will find all the issues, and then I work out the impact.
So I do a lot of 'how', and many physicists will also do the practical how to a large extent even if an engineer produces the drawings

DH is an engineer & member of one of the chartered societies, he gets their regular magazine. It's super interesting. They did the best explanation of the env. impact of Russian winter Olympics. They covered the infrastructure plans of candidates Clinton & Trump (I haven't seen as good a summary anywhere else). The mag takes something like the giant new tunnel in Switzerland and explains it in numbers. There was a history of the straw article the other day "design classic".

Thing is, it's all very practical, hands on, lots of things you can touch, that have real impacts in the every day world. Physics as a discipline isn't like that, ime.

Yes, I agree that they shoud approach the girls grammar and probably will. They have 25% female technical/engineering staff now so first class role models are available. The younger staff go to the careers evenings so what they say (and look like!) is relevant to a younger audience.

I would also stress that there are so many jobs that Engineers can do after graduating, it is useful to find a university where the majority will actually be Engineers. Oxbridge are the worst for this as their grads are very sought after in other jobs and, frankly, the pay will be higher in a City type job. It is a big draw. This is why young people who really do have a leaning towards engineering, and it has been along standing goal, should try and work in it. Many do the courses and start off being interested in becoming a chartered engineer, but they then have a minimum of 4 years post grad to do, so they lose interest.

For Engineers who want to get to the top, and earn very well, there are some great careers out there. I think in order to do this, engineering skills will not be enough. Often there is a great need to work with clients, work to a budget and be creative within the budget as well as find practical solutions. Engineering degrees can only take you so far which is why the university is not a deal breaker in terms of employment. (Although I think MN thinks it is!) There are so many other facets to a successful engineer that a university cannot really simulate or teach. Also do not forget that so much of engineering these days is using computer programs. The best engineers with a business brain want something more though and this is where additional skills come in that you build up in the workplace. Salaries will always be capped if you cannot progress within an organisation because you get stuck in one department with your nose to the grindstone and the computer.

Always remember that someone has to get the work for a company in the first place! Presentation skills, understanding client requirements and budgets are all key to that as well as personality. The big money is in getting all this right and smaller companies need these skills as well as engineering ones.

I did physics rather than engineering. It was more interesting. I have been a teacher as well. Currently I am working as a physicist, but all my colleagues are engineers of various types and I do the same sort of stuff that they do. I did, after uni, wish I had done engineering as grad schemes seemed to ignore physics, but I'm glad I didn't in the end. Physics is a broader subject, my maths is better than the engineers I work with, I can come up with more novel ideas because I'm not constrained in the way the engineers seem to be. I have worked in the medical field, nuclear power plants and heavy engineering sectors. I am a Chartered Engineer, as the institutes didn't seem to be bothered that my degrees are all physics. Do what is enjoyable - I really did love my time at uni and I don't think I'd have liked engineering as much then.

Dh really wanted to do physics originally but when looking at jobs he could get afterwards it was mostly relatively low wage lab work with long and difficult tracks to promotions. He then saw engineering mentioned on a forum as an option, looked at the graduate jobs again and they started around the £25k mark so he went down that route. Though he was a few years older and didn't want to be in a position where he was 30 and earning less than £25k and on a long road to earning more.

I'm now starting an engineering degree as well as it opens up a hell of a lot of doors (stem degrees, engineering, accountancy, ip law, various 'soft' sciences like psychology or occupational therapy with a conversion course afterwards, etc) compared to purely science or maths degrees or other degrees but again, I'm much older than your DD and I'm not 100% sure what I want to get into afterwards, so it was the better option personally.

Stem careers sorry! Not degrees

Completely agree with @BubblesBuddy There's so much more than designing within the engineering sector. Engineers with a business brain go very far - the ability to manage a budget, programme, scope, understanding the clients drivers and success criteria, stakeholder engagement, presenting the solution, managing a team, managing a build etc. Highly specialised engineers go far - world experts in their field. Engineers with strong interpersonal skills go far - new business.
Some of the projects we work on are genuinely amazing positively affecting millions of people. There's lots that fall under the humanitarian banner too.

One of the things that is sometimes overlooked is that engineering now tends to be project driven involving team work across disciplines, countries and sectors. So interpersonal skills are probably more important than you might think- the days of an introverted engineer sitting over a draughtboard are long gone. When I talk to our grads the main thing they have in common is that they joined the profession because they want to make a difference to the world.

I studied physics and geology then moved into civil engineering by along and tortuous route!

An area which is growing like topsy is Environmental Engineering. Flood relief schemes, drainage and how to hold run off water are all now important considerations for large housing developments. This is part of Civils but she would never be short of well paid work! Also developing brown field (contaminated) sites is also a challenge and is a growth area.

This is the field DH and I work in. The Environment Agency run a foundation degree in River and Coastal Engineering. It’s a mix of study and work placement and students get paid. There is later a possibility to top it up to a full BSc or BEng - I can’t remember which! EA foundation degree

Watching with interest as I have 2 DDs going to Uni within a year of each other and looking like I have one of each.

Shocked that in this day and age the girls' grammar isn't inviting engineering speakers.

Shocked that in this day and age the girls' grammar isn't inviting engineering speakers

I am a STEM Ambassador for the Institution of Civil Engineers and I find this amazing and appaling.

Software engineering would also be an option for someone good at creative thinking/problem solving and maths.

Well I guess they might be inviting Engineers to the girls' grammar careers evenings - just not DH's company! However they are the biggest nearby for their fields of engineering.

If a young person has really good GCSEs, and is likely to get high grade A levels, there is no need to do a foundation or a BSc/BEng. MEng is the quicker route to qualification. All Civils degrees will encompass environmental engineering/solutions. Grads can specialise after their degree if they wish.

I'm not sure DH's Engineers are set on making a difference to the world. Making a difference to the quality of life nearby, or in the UK, is good enough! However, if Engineers say they wish to make a difference to the world, they are in a huge company. No-one would say that at DHs place! In practice very few UK engineers make a difference to the world. It's also a bit dreamy. When they are in smaller company, this is not really relevant. Even in a larger company, it is not a charity. The vast majority of high value work is in first world countries. Unless you are working for the Chinese of course, who are everywhere.

I did engineering at Cambridge and amazingly went into engineering too! (It is true about how most people seem to have ended up in the city). I had a pretty good idea of which route I wanted to go down but really liked the general engineering approach, and don't feel like I was behind people from other universities who specialised from the start (often the opposite in fact).

It depends on people's drive as to how well far they can go. Certainly in civil/structural engineering the pay isn't great for 'typical' chartered engineers compared to other professionals for the qualifications and level of responsibility required.

Thank for that BubblesBuddy

I did a physics degree but was always hoping to end up in engineering. Once I graduated though it was impossible to get on engineering grad schemes because the engineers were already more experienced. This was many many years ago, mind!
I ended up in computing in the end and have a good career but still really wish I'd done engineering