Physics vs engineering - dd starting to think about uni courses & would welcome thoughts

[Sadik]

DD's just in year 12, so plenty of time, but is starting to think about what direction she wants to go post A levels. Previously she was looking at physics, but is wondering whether engineering might suit her better, and I said I'd ask the MN massive for any thoughts.

She's very keen on science /maths generally, good solid GCSEs (7x A* 3xA - we're in Wales so still letter grades). Taking Maths/ FM/ Physics/ Chemistry & very much enjoying them all to date. As I say she chose her A levels thinking probably physics, but she's now wondering if she'd prefer a more practical subject.

I'd say she's not a 'natural engineer' of the always taking things apart and fixing them type, but good at creative thinking and problem solving, so I can see why it appeals. (But she's certainly not at the 'I want to do mechanical / electronic / aeronautical engineering' stage.)

We've booked to go to open days at Cardiff & Swansea uni shortly & she's planning to look at both departments, so I guess right now she's looking for any ideas / things she might be missing / questions to ask. (She's also hoping to get on an extracurricular thing at college where they have a 'real engineer' (dd's description) and a real-world problem to work on.)

Hi there. DD is applying for engineering. She was all set to do physics and then went on an engineering headstart programme. It inspired her. She arranged 2 local work experience placements over the summer, just for a few days. Engineering has a clearer career path. She is not a ‘natural’ engineering....I think there is a bit of sexism at play because girls generally are not encouraging to take things to bits/play etc in the same way as boys. So I would not worry about that. Good luck to your daughter..whatever she decides.

Just reread OP and have to say that what confirmed Dd choice was the large element of problem solving and creative thinking in engineering. Please look at headstart it was a v good experience in and of itself

www.etrust.org.uk/headstart-inspire-ris

I did engineering at Cambridge and amazingly went into engineering too! (It is true about how most people seem to have ended up in the city).

My DD definitely intends to be an engineer! And maybe the perception of 'most ending up in the city' is a bit skewed - perhaps it's the noisy ones you notice?

www.admissions.eng.cam.ac.uk/cambridge/demand

Petulia - I am not sure a Physics degree qualifies you for a Graduate Engineer training scheme. The Council of Engineering does not appear to recognise Physics at Imperial College for example. It really is best to start out doing the degree you need by checking the recognised engineering first degrees. It may have been possible to do a relevant masters degree though.

I think it is difficult to tell what current engineering grads will do with their degrees. It takes 4 years to be a chartered engineer, minimum. City wages are higher and attained quickly in comparison and is well known route for Engineering grads from Oxbridge and other desirable universities. They invariably go into finance and are definitely not just the noisy ones!

There have been shortages of engineers for years and years. DH has employed suitably qualified Engineers from around the globe for a long time. The longer term financial rewards are very good, including for Civils and Structures. Few have earned what DH has! But you have to be the businessman (woman) as well.

I forgot to mention that DH finds Portsmouth grads very employable.

Yes, that was the problem Bubbles, unfortunately it wasn't what I'd been told when I picked my degree. I was planning on doing a masters afterwards when I couldn't get an engineering job but then got on another grad scheme so the lure of being paid won out in the end. It was 20+ years ago and in hindsight I'd probably make different choices!

You can get on engineering grad schemes without engineering. You just need to have a degree with maths in it e.g. physics.

So much useful advice on here, very many thanks and hopefully it will be useful for some others as well :)

MrSlant I suspect we probably will end up at many of the same open days! DD has actually run into the Aber robotics people through extension stuff they've done round here (sadly we're too far away for her to have gone to their robotics club, she'd have loved to be able to). Maybe good to have a bit more of a change of scene though as a student if you're already from rural west Wales...!

I think I'd disagree with Physics always being why and engineering how
CMOTDibbler I am talking about the focus of the physics degree being 'why', not the way in which skills gained from physics degrees are later used for work including in medical physics. Of course any laboratory work for physics degree will be 'how' as well but the 'how' is to answer the 'why' rather than for more practical purposes.
I know many physics students would find engineering tedious and engineering students who would struggle with physics. Generally higher entry standards are required for physics than for engineering so physics students tend to be better at quantitative skills and abstract thinking.

Generally higher entry standards are required for physics than for engineering so physics students tend to be better at quantitative skills and abstract thinking.

Having looked at both a couple of years ago, I'm not sure there's much between them - some unis will have higher entry requirements for MEng than physics, some will be the other way round, some the same.

ErrolTheDragon I would be surprised if physics applicants at require lower grade than their Engineering counterparts at any of the top 10 universities unless the university has a particular niche strength in engineering (such as Southhampton for EE).
The same grades possibly for some.

Bobbin: I could not find any Physics degrees when I looked at the Engineering Council’s list of approved courses when I posted earlier. If you cannot become a Chartered Engineer because you don’t have a qualifying degree, I struggle to see how you can be admitted to a grad scheme that leads to Chartered status. Engineering clearly isn’t just maths! Please tell me which non Engineering degrees, approved by the Engineering Council, will get you into a grad scheme which leads to Chartered Engineer status.

The truth of the matter is, Errol and send, is that they are all after the same young people! So the best universities will want AAA for both degrees, or better. Also there are so many MEng degrees available, I don’t think any of the courses are niche. EE isn’t niche anywhere. It’s a mainstream course. Southampton is strong in a number of engineering fields. As indeed are many universities. They all run sizeable engineering departments and tend to offer courses allied to local needs, eg Aerospsce at Bristol, Chemical at Aberdeen etc. That doesn’t mean they are not strong in other disciplines.

Bubblesbuddy I said niche strength for EE at Southampton not that EE is a niche subject.
I have had a quick look at CUG subject tables, crude measure of entry standards but physics students score marginally above engineering students at the top places. It is only a slight difference though.
Anyway the most important is what a student finds interesting.

Bubbles, I found a few. You can enter an engineering grad scheme with a physics degree, go through the scheme and apply for CEng status in this country. I know, because my company does it and I am a physicist who holds CEng status. Accreditation can be got round by demonstration of knowledge. I also know that engineering is not just maths, but thanks for the pointer there.

So.....I work for a MAJOR international engineering company (it's not all we do). I interview and employ grads and have about 20 grads working for me right now. Every single one of them has an engineering degree. If they didn't, I wouldn't interview them.
There is only one grad that I have come across who doesn't have a 'pure' engineering degree and that was in mechanical engineering and robotics from a high profile course - he is working in Mech Eng.
if you want to get into engineering you need to do an engineering degree.

Whilst we are on it...environment and water engineers are a slightly different beast. There are alternative routes to the environmental careers (environmental science degrees etc) BUT they earn about 2/3rds of the other disciplines.

If you want a decent career you need to get into a big company on day one so that you can charter quickly (its competence based so you need the ability to work on different projects in different roles which isn't easy to get in small companies). When you are qualified then it doesn't matter.

The Uni does matter but not as much as it used to. I would take a 1st from a lower pegging Uni above a 2:2 from a top tier.

OP - this is something your DD will need to decide up front. You won't easily be able to do physics/ maths degrees and then get a grad job in a decent company to become a chartered engineer.

It may be possible but other than the one exception above I have never seen it in the company I work for in 20 years (oh, and did I mention that the person in question was also the much much younger half brother of one of the engineers that he did work experience with us for 3 years? Every single holiday)

So to be blunt, it's a decision that would need to be made now. Work experience should help to solidify the right choice.

DD wanted to do computer science- after a week with our IT dept and then a week with our M&E team she decided mechanical engineering was great but she didn't actually want to do either. Until she tried them she wouldn't have known to change all her A Level choices.

....hopefully that helps.

Sorry, that should have said 20 years of recruiting/managing staff....it's 30 years in the industry!

If she is thinking down the Oxbridge route then Cambridge do a broad engineering degree that might suit.

oops. Didn't RTFT.

There are physicists (materials scientists too presumably) who work at the research end of engineering, aren't there? I'd guess that path would mostly require doing a PhD.

@ErrolTheDragon - sorry, I stand corrected. And I genuinely mean that. I thought the OP was talking about engineering in terms of buildings, bridges, road, tunnels, airports, rail, water, power etc etc. If that's the sort of engineering )ie where you design something that will be built) then my statements stand.

There are lots of other types of 'engineers'.

As for PhDs, if you are a world expert in 'something' that will help your charter ship. Mind you I am flabbergasted at the number of PhDs knocking around where I work. I used to feel intimidated when I first started.... but then my main skill turned out to be managing major engineering projects. Ask me to design the most effective air ventilation system for one of the cross rail stations, or the fire systems or the foundations for a bridge and I will be stuffed.....but I know a man or woman who can

I still maintain that if you want to be an engineer (in the pure term) then should study engineering.

I am preparing for CEng, from a BSc In Physics and Geology; then an MSc (Geotechnical Engineering), PhD, evening classes and an Extraordinary Academic Assessment by the Institution of Civil Engineers. I work right on the peripheries of science and engineering and every job i’ve ever had could have been done by a BEng or BSc graduate. So, CEng from BSc is possible, it’s just not straightforward.

bpisok - I took it the OPs DD is still at an early stage of exploring physics v engineering and then I guess she'll think about the various fields within those.

I certainly wouldn't disagree at all with 'I still maintain that if you want to be an engineer (in the pure term) then should study engineering.' - it's the conclusion my DD came to. she told me she'd have loved to do a physics degree too, for the sheer interest, but she wanted to be an engineer. (And I think she's finding her degree plenty interesting!)

In a sense though, a bright kid doing those A levels who's thinking things through like this at this stage will almost certainly do absolutely fine whichever way she (or even he) decides.

That's exactly it Errol. I think the advice on here (particularly the idea of Headstart courses) will really help her narrow down her ideas. Hopefully the two open days in October will also give her more food for thought :)

Airbus are currently offering 5 days of work experience to students between 14-19. In their North Wales and Bristol sites. Might help her see it from the practical point of view? And perhaps give the opportunity to speak to working engineers.

That's a great suggestion missillusioned, I'll pass it on to her