DD wants to do a law degree

[blondebarbie2001]

So my DD is currently in year 12 and is sitting her mocks. She has decided her career path of law and I think her grades will be okay but a personal statement isn't just grades. I was wondering whether anyone knew how to make her personal statement stand out? Whether any volunteering will benefit her and work experience and where are the best places to find work experience? Also whether there are any good books to read to further her knowledge associated to degrees which will make it stand out?

Unfortunately so far she has done no work experience because she is unsure on where to find them. She has been rejected by the majority of her local law firms. She has 6 weeks work experience at her local primary school helping people read and also participated in a programme where she ran a business and competed nationally. Her business came first in their county final and won best company report, presentation and interview. She was responsible for the presentation. She is also doing EPQ but has not started yet. If anyone can give any advice that I could maybe put forward to her on what to do her EPQ on and how to get high would be brilliant?

Larlarland I found the list of entrants for my Magic Circle firm when my parents house was cleared. I've just fished it out from my desk. It's interesting in that it shows almost the exact same spread of universities as my DC describe (Oxbridge dominated with a good sprinkling of other places too) and the majority - but not huge majority - read law. The only striking difference is the gender balance, which is now far more equal.

More applicants are chasing places but the world hasn't suddenly got cleverer in the past two or three decades. so at the top end I'd argue that the competition is exactly the same. These firms and chambers are still trying to find the best brains along with the best fit and no-one is going to be persuaded by a couple of weeks slogging away at coffee making or document arranging in a solicitor's firm. It's a big waste of time. If it was needed to tip the scales then none of my three lawyer DC (or want to be lawyer in DS2's case) would have succeeded in securing Magic Circle offers or pupillage. The fact that students wanting these Training Contracts or pupillages think they need it doesn't mean that they do - they just get swept along and worry that they'll be at a disadvantage if they don't do it, which isn't true.

I don’t disagree with that goodbyestranger but my feeling is that recruitment is not an exact science. Simply placing the biggest brains into jobs doesn’t always turn out the best practitioners. I know that more and more pupillages are being taken up by Oxbridge candidates and that’s understandable but I don’t think that’s necessarily healthy. Anecdotally I know many Oxbridge grads who have practised at the bar and not made their mark. I think the same is true with solicitors. The bar in particular requires a special set of skills which go beyond intelligence. I would say that courage and charisma are pretty high up on that list. That’s why you can get a practitioner with a double first who bombs (I know a few of those) and an ex poly type who gets silk (I also know a few of those too). Work experience could give the latter the opportunity to show potential employers their worth. I worry about the lack of access a large cohort have to oxbridge (a different argument I know) which is filtering down into the legal profession, making it more homogeneous than it’s been in some time. I really feel that isn’t healthy for the professions.

Very, very few chambers give work experience to students still at school though. In London there are only a handful of exceptions. Two of my DDs (DD3 and DD4) have done a week at a particular chambers while they were in Y11 (Matrix) but they're offered on a competitive basis and I know from DD4 that 2018 is sold out, otherwise I'd have suggested it to OP.

I agree LLL that why I very specifically said best brains along with best fit, and that was for top solicitors' firms. Best fit applies equally but differently for the Bar.

If you look at the online CVs for London chambers they bear out exactly what you say about increasing domination by Oxbridge. If you go to the old guard at the top of the lists you'll see much wider representation.

Lar interesting that you say about courage and charisma are desirable for the bar. The barrister I know is the one who was a theatre director and before that an actor. But they also had a First in English from a top university - not Oxbridge, though.

That’s what I have noticed too goodbyestranger (more diverse representation in older practitioners) and I think that is a huge shame and not healthy. Of course when you get a practitioner with a planet sized brain who also has courage, charisma and so on they are completely stellar.

I highly recommend a book called 'What About Law? Studying law at University' by Catherine Barnard which gives a very accessible and realistic taste of what the academic study of law is like. Sorry, can't do a link here but available on Amazon or your local library can order it in. It covers all the core elements of a law degree and some of the legal concepts introduced there (equity, tort, contract) may prompt some thoughts for her personal statement or ideas for an EPQ topic which could tie in with her interest in philosophy.

The study of law is intellectually satisfying and academically demanding. A law degree is an asset on a CV whatever career path she decides to take. If that is what interests her then she should do it.

But ... the practice of law as PPs have said can be a different thing and is rarely glamorous! And it is very hard work and can be insanely competitive. That's not to say it can't be an enjoyable and fulfilling career. While I think experience in a solicitors' office or barristers' chambers is not critical at this stage of applying to university, at some point it will be valuable in deciding whether to proceed with the professional qualifications.

I think mature entrants slightly skew the picture at the Bar. They are often recruited for expertise in their particular field that has been built up in a different environment where the ex poly might be The Place to go to study that particular discipline.

New entrants without a proven field of expertise built up over years are most likely to be Oxbridge or a narrow range of universities. They are, of course, best fit but even getting to interview stage is tough. With 420 pupillages on offer and 1400 training on the BPTC every year, plus all the applicants who were unsuccessful from previous years, it’s hard to succeed. I’m aftraid non RG and new universities are around 10% of new barrister tenants (those who practice after pupillage). There is the employed Bar though, such as the CPS. Therefore you are really going against the odds for success by not going to one of the top ranked universities. It may well not lead to diversity but, as said above, the Bar wants switched on people with, I agree, courage and determination. To me, that does not equal staying at home to go to the local university when you could do so much better. That decision will be questioned. A young person has to understand that it’s wildly competitive and ticking boxes is vital as a starting point. Work experience is valuable if you need to hone skills in a certain field or even decide what the field might be. All knowledge is worthwhile even if you jettison some of it as you go along. DD had a clear strategy for getting pupillage, but many don’t and put in hopeful punts. You really have to plan it like a military campaign. You also need to apply for scholarships on the way too to help with the huge costs.

Many barristers hardly set foot in courts either. It depends what area of law you do. However, it does give a picture of what working life could be like.

Actually, goodbye, a recent report says IQs are declining in this country after years of increasing.

Read this thread with interest. I'm mid-twenties and about to give birth lol but have a first class LLB from a uni that is not RG nor ex-poly. I graduated in 2017, moved back to my home city in the North West and work in a job in a law firm that doesn't pay much above minimum wage despite only recruiting law grads for the role. I don't have any family/friends/connections who work in law although have done a fair amount of work experience placements in different settings. My plan was initially to have one or more children and then go back to do the BPTC etc but really not sure it's worth the astronomical costs given it's so unlikely on the odds that I would succeed . I think it is really hard trying to pursue a career as a solicitor or barrister without any relevant connections and I feel the older I get the more unattainable it all seems .

With regards to your DD OP, the only legal work experience I had when I applied to uni was a fortnight in a high-street solicitors firm that I think exclusively did conveyancing and probate when I was 15 and I hardly did/saw anything there, as a PP said it was mostly filing and making coffee. Didn't put me off but wasn't particularly valuable either. I remember reading 'Letters to a Law Student' which I really enjoyed. The book that sparked my desire for a career in law was 'Iran Awakening' by Shirin Ebadi which I read when I was about 14 (I have some Iranian heritage). I also remember reading a GCSE Law textbook and an A-Level Law textbook which I got from my local library when I was about 16/17 (these weren't options for me at school/sixth-form). Other things I think I mentioned in my PS were just what my other hobbies and interests were, so I gave examples of reading widely, I was a prefect, I was taking beginner's Spanish lessons in my free time as well as volunteering a few hours a week as a gardener for a local charity.

I suspect the problem is that even if you just look at Oxbridge and say 5 other universities you will still find loads of people with the good grades and the stamina and all the other qualities needed.

I started my TC in 83 and reading my 1983 diary recently I was the only person in that first department who was not Oxbridge (and I presume I was there as I had won a lot of law prizes) - that was of the people I happened to write about in the diary who were those I knew in that department so not exactly a scientific sample.

Wasn't the previous diversification of university and grades because Uncle Toby put in a word so John who was as thick as a plank and just about scraped is degree got in because of his class and privilege though? Isn't it better we now recruit by the purity of exam scores to an extent?

I am all for the demise of nepotism but I would hope that all candidates are given careful consideration rather than their being a situation where only Oxbridge graduates get a look in.

Sometimes sheer volume of applications will mean that not all candidates are given consideration LLL, careful or not.

Interesting about IQ Bubbles and mine has certainly declined (I tell the DC I peaked aged 11) but I wonder what real difference that makes in terms of competition at the top end - very little I suspect.

Nepotism was more evident in the financial sector in the City Xenia, where intellectual ability wasn't so much in demand. John might have been spotted quite quickly in a MC firm when faced with numbers etc and not got many cases (because he'd have always lost them) at the Bar.

MeadowHay. I can assure you that very few of DD's friends have connections anywhere. I am not sure how you have picked up from this thread that barristers have connections. The vast majorty do not but they have planned their entry to the Bar like a military campaign, as I said above. If you have a top notch degree, then of course you can train.

However, if you live in the NW, how many pupillages are there in Manchester each year? A handful? How many are on the GDL and then BPTC in Manchester? I do not know the answer but I bet it is multiples of the pupillage and trainee solicitor vacancies. These courses have expanded in recent years with little prospect for the majority of students getting what they want. The odds of getting pupillage are low. The cost of the GDL is usually around £9,000 and the BPTC in London is circa £19,500 plus you need accommodation if you cannot live at home. There are regional centres and in Manchester the BPTC is probably nearer £16,000. You have to apply to one of the Inns of Court for a financial scholarship (its competitive and always on merit and sometimes financial background as well) and also get one from your BPTC provider. If you can get a major one, or two, then your cost is covered.

However, you really need to research what the job entails at the entry level after pupillage. I am not joking when I quote the hours DD works. (Was that on this thread or another one?) In fact sometimes it is longer! It is a hard slog and it really only suits those who can wholly give their time when they are in their first few years of tenancy. This is not to put you off, but it is being realistic.

Yes, LLL, it should be on merit and in fact 40% of new tenants are not Oxbridge. The number of pupillages has contracted greatly in the last 10 years so Chambers can afford to be choosy. It has almost certainly knocked out most of the non RG sector and some RG. There are areas of work that are not necessarily Oxbridge heavy, eg Family. The earnings are unlikely to be stellar but you will be in court a lot and your work really does matter.

The idea that pupils at Chambers could be chosen because of Uncle Toby whilst being as thick as a plank is consigned to history and, actually, was a very long time ago! Performance in the BPTC counts for a lot too! It is not just on degree if you are applying post BPTC.

In case helpful... I started my training contract at a magic circle firm in 2009. I wouldn't say that connections help in the magic circle or bigger firms but I agree this is probably true in smaller firms and chambers. I'm racking my brains and pretty much everyone in my year (100 or so of us) went to Oxbridge, London, Durham, Bristol, Warwick, Edinburgh etc. The lowest ranking uni (and it is still fantastic!) was probably Exeter.
My friend studied law at Leeds and got a 2.1. She has just given up on ever getting a training contract after trying for almost a decade.
It is super hard and super competitive - but with a bit of luck and hard work you can do it! If she would be happy working in a small high street firm, something like a branch of McMillan Williams, or as others have said the CPS there is less competition.
The best advice is just to get into the best uni possible, the better the uni the more options she will have.

(Leeds is also brilliant!)

Sorry, I don't mean to give the impression that I was implying that barristers/solicitors all get there through nepotism or anything, I just mean if you do have people that you know in the profession it's obviously much easier to access relevant work experience opportunities and useful career advice etc which obviously benefit you.

I can assure you that I'm well-versed in the ratio of BPTC grads:pupillages/tenancies and that kind of thing, which is partly what I was trying to express in my post, that when the odds are so bad I'm not sure I could afford to take the risk (financial and otherwise). I am also aware of Inns of Court scholarships etc. As you say though Bubbles I also struggle to see how I would fit BPTC, pupillage and then a career as a barrister around having a family. For example my plan initially was to do the BPTC part-time at Man Met as this would fit better around family commitments and mean less commuting, but they have now cut the part-time course. I have a while to ruminate over it anyway as DH is currently a student and I'm the 'bread winner' (if you can call someone that who earns little above minimum wage!) so there is no prospect of me returning to study for at least 2 years. I do think that the LPC and solicitor route seems much more accessible though. Not trying to play down how competitive that is too but the figures aren't as horrendous as BPTC/barrister ratios if I remember correctly and there are many LPC providers here, some of which I believe offer part-time study and there are also Masters qualifications which means entitlement to Student Finance etc.

I will stop moaning about my childhood dreams now .

The odds are hugely against anybody wanted pupillage in the regions. Liverpool University have 500 undergrads in each year group alone. Assuming that some of those students want to practice at the Bar and stay in the regions, there are only a handful of pupillages available locally so it's very, very tough.

DD is booking open days now. She has booked into Kent, Oxford and LSE. Anymore that she should book that would have some of the lowest living prices if she was to move there or any that are can be easily traveled from Maidstone?

If she can manage getting to LSE, then I'd look at University College London (UCL) and King's College London, both very good universities.

It’s ok MeadowHay. I cannot tell you how many people have suggested DD must have had a better chance because we had connections! No we didn’t.

One of the huge advantages of training in London is the networking opportunities. These are not to be underestimated and you become a member of an Inn when you want a scholarship. Doing a degree there is also valuable.

I do think blonde that your DD really should not choose Law at a university that is close to home. After all, that leaves little choice. I think a number of us have told you which universities give a better chance of a career in Law. If she would like a High Street solicitor, then she needs to find out which ones actually offer traineeships. Plenty don’t. Lots of universities are opaque about what their Law grads go on to do. Employment figures are not the same as training contracts or pupillage. I would try and get DD to be brave and try for the best. Perhaps add Warwick and Bristol if Durham feels too far.

Do you think, with the competitiveness of training contracts after law, if DD manages to get one, to take the route of a solicitor apprenticeship

Training contracts are for solicitors. You do the lpc and two years practice basically then qualify,

Well mine got a first today!!!

I'm so, so, chuffed for her..apparantly it's one of the hardest degrees to get a first in, only 5-8 % of graduates achieve it. Compared to approx 30% in maths for example,😍😍😍

Many congrats on the 1st Bluntness DD!

Thank you. I'm really pleased for her, and messaging everyone I know, It's been a long hard slog for her. I even contemplated starting a thread saying " my daughter got a friggen first". But thought better of it.☺️🤣

Sorry to hijack barbie 💐

Bluntness, that's really good news. Well done to her.