DD wants to do a law degree

[blondebarbie2001]

So my DD is currently in year 12 and is sitting her mocks. She has decided her career path of law and I think her grades will be okay but a personal statement isn't just grades. I was wondering whether anyone knew how to make her personal statement stand out? Whether any volunteering will benefit her and work experience and where are the best places to find work experience? Also whether there are any good books to read to further her knowledge associated to degrees which will make it stand out?

Unfortunately so far she has done no work experience because she is unsure on where to find them. She has been rejected by the majority of her local law firms. She has 6 weeks work experience at her local primary school helping people read and also participated in a programme where she ran a business and competed nationally. Her business came first in their county final and won best company report, presentation and interview. She was responsible for the presentation. She is also doing EPQ but has not started yet. If anyone can give any advice that I could maybe put forward to her on what to do her EPQ on and how to get high would be brilliant?

Sorry I keep thinking of extra things - apologies OP

Your DD could look at LNAT? lnat.ac.uk/

Law is a very traditional area of work. The university you go to really matters. A friend of mine used to select graduates for his firm's training contracts. The first sift would only keep for consideration candidates with a minimum of three As at A-level (and this was years ago before the A* grade was introduced, so God know what it is now), a top 10 university and, by preference, fluency in a foreign language. I think your DD should aim for the highest-ranking university for her subject that she can realistically try for.

I have a law degree and am not a lawyer so disagree that she needs to decide on career before starting the degree. I was on the fence but since found people with law degrees in many professions, it’s a strong, regulated degree course that’s well respected by employers, and certainly doesn’t close more doors than philosophy?!

Ultimately I found access to the legal profession was fairly restricted by who you know and it was very difficult to get work experience without having connections. Unlike accountancy which I did enter as a graduate, where access to top firms is on a level playing field from the start.

Thank you everyone for the advice! She is a right homebird so can't imagine her leaving home even with an offer from Oxbridge (she's that adamant she wants to stay at home.) I think she's always worried about finances because I earn too much for her to get a large loan but do not have the money expected to lend her however that's not what's stopping her she doesn't know I can't afford it.

She was looking at a joint LLB with psychology at Southampton because that's her strongest alevel however Southampton is actually ranked lower for law than Kent is (which is practically on our doorstep) so we were a bit confused to why she'd load herself with more work away from home when the opportunity is there.

All of the subjects she's studied have always been shaped around law (GCSE history and economics) and alevel philosophy for the essay writing. She's never really looked into other degrees because she all she's ever wanted to do is law and obviously I can't stop her but I can't imagine her sitting any other degrees.

I am going to recommend her to go to courts nearby in the summer and possibly go to the old bailey at least once in summer. After her mocks I'm going to tell her to ring the local chambers to ask for a mini pupilage in the summer. I will also buy her the book recommended by a past answer (can't remember the name but will check) and will also tell her to look for work experience in law firms as admin and possibly even ask to shadow a judge. Possibly also recommend for her to maybe look in for HQ nearby and legal quarters and also local law firms (small ones.) maybe they would be more likely to accept her.

If anyone had any connections in the Medway/Maidstone area or London and would be willing to help me out, that would be great. Just pm me.

I do think she maybe needs to think long and hard about her uni. Law is hugely competitive. If she is predicted those results, the same as my daughters was predicted , she should go for a higher university as ultimately it will benefit her more at the end when she is looking to start her career.

Her choice of uni will ultimately help or hinder her and picking a uni for this field of study should not be based on if she wants to leave home or not. It should be based on the best law school she can get and that she is comfortable with.

Her choosing s lower one to stay home is a decision that could ultimately cost her dearly.

And thanks!

Her fabulous predicted grades make me wonder if she could apply to ucl
or lse and commute from home! Going to the best uni she can will make a huge difference... Anyway it sounds like the world is hers for the taking whatever she decides

@Fridakahlofan could you advise me on the top unis for law? Maybe I can look into commuting for her for the ones that are high?

I would also agree that reading long dry documents is what a law student does, then they write them, Ive read through enough dissertations to know,,,🤣

On one of our uni tours we were told it was always the law students in the library at midnight or the weekends. It's a heavy degree and reading heavy and lengthy stuff fast is a large part of it. They have to consume and understand a huge amount of information and quickly.

If she doesn't like that or struggles with it, it really might not be for her, she needs to enjoy it and find it interesting or she will not do well in her degree. So she needs to accept that's what it is, and she needs to read it, research it, understand it, quote it and apply it to support her arguments,,,,

If she’s aiming for the commercial bar, I’d suggest she has a look at the websites for some of the commercial chambers, and looks at the CVs of the barristers.

If she’s thinking of the criminal bar she needs to be aware of all the recent protests and just how much of a struggle it is for many junior barristers

Law is hugely diverse, it’s hard to generalise. I absolutely love my job but suspect I am in the minority of lawyers! But I love the mix of intellectual challenge/ team management/ problem solving / building client relationships that comes with my role.

Personally I'd look at the overall ranking of the university rather than how it does in law (or any particular subject). Top chambers and law firms will get so many applications that they will give priority to the applicants who have gone to the best unis. Have a look at the times, the guardian and the complete university guide's rankings and aim for the top 25. That's my opinion anyway!

I have a law degree (first class, RG university) and I’m not a lawyer.

My university was only interested in my grades (My offer was AAA, before A*s) and some evidence of wider interests (sport, for me). I had no work experience at all in the legal sector.

I loved, loved, loved my degree. I was very disciplined at working 9-5, 5 days a week and as a result, never found any need to work into the night. Some of it was dull as dishwater (EU law, constitutional and administrative law and property bores me to tears, sometimes literally) but I took some very niche courses which fascinated me and got me my first. I doubt I knew some of these areas existed before I started my degree, so there is absolutely no need to decide your practice area beforehand! In fact, many people don’t know when they start their training contracts.

Although I didn’t want to become a lawyer in the end, having a law degree has opened doors for me in unrelated areas. It’s unlikely to be a degree that holds you back CV wise.

OP the unis don't care two hoots about work experience in a local solicitor's firm. The reality is that your DD is at the end of Y12 and has remarkably little time left - just the summer - to find something anyhow before UCAS looms.

Two of my DDs read law at Oxford and while both had also wanted to study law for a long time and had in fact spent weeks here and there in London chambers etc, that wasn't the focus of either their personal statements or university interviews. Your DD's time really would be far better spent reading books she likes the look of supplemented with going to court. Incidentally I also have a DS who has got offers for Training Contracts from Magic Circle firms who read History but had never done a day's law related work experience in his life, nor joined the Law Soc at uni nor did any moots - he just has a very quick mind.

The idea that you need humdrum work experience is wrong, so don't let worry about it ruin your DDs summer - it really doesn't influence success.

@goodbyestranger wow it's amazing that both your DDs went to oxford!! Do you have any book recommendations that you're aware that they read?

I think she needs to do some serious research into other universities - not just grades but also how those universities view different A-levels. Your DD isn't taking any of the traditional A levels which RG universities love like history, English or a foreign language. Even if she isn't studying appropriate subjects for RG universities, she could still apply for them but only to one or two and have some more realisitic back up plans.

There are lots and lots of siblings there blondebarbie but cheers :)

I've only got a vague recollection of the various books they read but they avoided the intro to contract/tort/criminal law sort of books. One book was about medical law and ethical issues around consent etc which might be the sort of thing to your DD. The other DD read a Ronald Dworkin book but I remember her saying it was heavy going. The Politics of the Judiciary by JAG Griffiths was another one both read I think and is an easier read.

www.waterstones.com/bookshops/gower-street
blackwells.co.uk/bookshop/home

If you click onto the law sections of either link your DD should be able to browse and spot something she likes the look of for summertime reading!

On the EPQ, one of my DD's also did P&E and did her EPQ on some aspect of the trials of the holocaust, although I didn't read it so I'm not sure I ever knew exactly what that aspect was. But basically the EPQ is wide open - so not a bad idea for uni applications to marry law and philosophy/ your DD's interests, because it's bound to be perfectly possible.

Hi OP - seems you're not far from me. I work near Maidstone but we live nearer to Ashford.

Dd1 did an LLB at Bristol then an MSc in a Law related subject at King's London (winning best student and best thesis prizes). Currently unemployed in law because she wants to work in such a niche area. Sigh.

Go to the best university you can, bear in mind you may hate the system as dd1 does and end up not going down your original career path.
Disclaimer: am v v proud of dd - she is committed to working in mental health.

It is not the first time that goodbyestranger and I have clashed on these threads

The advice not to seek relevant work experience is wrong. Training contracts are very few and far between. Qualifying as a solicitor is a tough gig. It's not even easy for Oxbridge educated kids. Once you get your law degree (or other degree with a GDL) then you do an LPC . There are a lot of kids with LPCs. The proportion of kids looking for a training contract as opposed to those who actually get training contracts is 5:1 the last time I checked the data and any more up to date information would be welcome.

A substantial proportion of kids with LPCs end up as paralegals. IMHO a career as a paralegal is not the best outcome after 4/5 years of tertiary education. You would earn more as a plumber, probably.

Another website I would suggest that you check out is this one www.lawsociety.org.uk/

The medical book goodbyestranger mentioned might be Medicine, Patients and the Law by Margaret Brazier.

If she wants to stay at home she could look at London Universities such as UCL, LSE and Kings. Plus coach routes from Medway. All good Universities, with possibly as good employment records as Oxbridge, commuter coaches (Kings Ferry) are relatively inexpensive and there will be plenty of students living at home so student life tends to be campus rather than hall based.

Yes that's exactly the book Mrs Squiggler. Thank you!

I missed the posts written by Thesearepearls actually. I've read them now but still maintain that work experience of the sort described on this thread is of no value in securing a training contract at a top or even middling firm and will make no difference at the Bar. There is a value in it for the other reason suggested above - to see if the experience puts you off. But you say your DD is dead set on law and there are plenty of really. really interesting jobs in the law or after a law degree so I wouldn't be too downbeat or quail in the face of statistics given that your DD's grades are very good.

But there are cases going on which are incredibly interesting, every day, and the way to short circuit all the admin and to and fro-ing in a High St setting (for want of a better description) is to go to court and watch a case from start to finish. Saves all the hassle of last minute applications for this summer and cuts straight to the law. You might want advice from the court office about which cases are coming up in the lists, which are open to the public and how long they're scheduled to last.

DD1's interview at Oxford was exclusively based on a legal problem and then the explanation of a legal concept. Nothing about work experience at all. Same for her vac scheme interviews at Magic Circle firms and then her successful end of vac scheme interviews. DD3 did get asked about a case she'd watched and the issues thrown up by it (it was a case about control orders and terrorism and the issue was being much discussed in the news) but the interview still focussed on a case extract she was given to read. DD3 is now at the Bar and to be fair you do need experience to succeed, but more of the moot, Free Representation Unit type, and that all comes later.

Honestly, no-one cares about time spent in a solicitor's office they really don't - the need for work experience is miles away from the need for work experience if you're wanting to do medicine. I think the two have become conflated, wrongly.

Your DD's best bet is to channel what time she has left effectively, since the summer will go in a blink. What help is her school providing? I'm just wondering what sort of school it is? Some chambers and firms have links to schools in the London and outer London area but that's only for non selective schools, for obvious reasons.

I do think going to Kent university will be problematic for being a barrister and won’t put her in the top pile for a good city solicitor either. If she really wants to be a barrister, the competition is fierce. I would also politely suggest that being a home bird isn’t a good idea either. Many who gain pupillage have done mini pupillages in many London Chambers and use this to narrow down the field in which they want to specialise, eg Criminal, Family, Civil etc. Going too niche is a big mistake as pp said above due to lack of niche opportunities.

Therefore, as needmore says, going into London is the best option and the best of those are UCL, Kings and LSE. She doesn’t have the traditional A levels for Law so see what is required for a subject other than Law if she has to.

DDs friends come from a very small group of universities and, as I said above, Oxbridge rules. If you don’t want to look beyond Kent her chances are severely reduced. Don’t forget the competition will have firsts from Durham, UCL, Warwick, Bristol and a few others. All of these will be more sought after then Southampton or Kent in the top tier of the legal profession.

I also think it’s not good to stay at home to study if you can avoid it. Law is hugely competitive and doing things for yourself and showing maturity and ability to manage lots of things is part of the learning process. Lots of people in law have excellent degrees and found time to do other things. Therefore going for a year abroad to study languages, getting involved in your university societies do make a difference. Commuting home perhaps isn’t the best prep, and it makes for a long day, and staying at home is not so good either.

There are details on very many Chambers web sites for mini pupillages and when to apply - not yet! It’s no bad thing to know what general area of law you want but you have to act strategically to get where you want to be. London universities certainly offer the opportunities.

For what it’s worth, DH and I know no one in Law! Our DD had no help from us or anyone else she knew apart from 2 weeks work experience in a solicitors office whilst at university. She is hugely self motivated and did it herself. Don’t listen to anyone that says you have to “know” people, you don’t. However staying in Kent puts you on the back foot for networking and everything legal. Try and advise her that only the best will do.

The people I know who are now solicitors or barristers, none did work experience before getting a training contract or pupillage. As I said earlier, none had a degree in law or had any contacts in the law - they didn't know any lawyers or have lawyers as friends or family. They applied after they did the relevant conversion courses, off the back of good degrees from top universities. They have degrees in things like English or History or Engineering or Chemistry, etc. A few had worked for a short time in other fields before they decided on law. One was a theatre director, for instance, another (with a masters degree already) was an engineer. But this was 20 years ago now, so maybe work experience is more necessary, but I suspect it isn't.

It’s a much different world now daisypond to how it was 20 years ago. The competition for training contracts and pupillages is unprecedented. I think every person who is serious about a career in law has to consider trying to obtain some work experience, not least to find out if law is for them and which of the two professions they prefer.

Lar - I suppose you're right. There has been, in the last 20 years, a huge increase in the number of universities, and hence the number of students studying law, so competition is bound to be much tougher. I wonder if studying law at a newer university is worth it at all if you want to become a solicitor or barrister. I'm happy to be corrected on this.

If you listen to people on here you wouldn’t think anybody from a new university ever made a career in the law. I think it’s more challenging for those candidates but it is definitely not impossible.