Son has an offer for Classics but really wants to study Law?

[duckeggblu]

Hi all,

DS is in middle of sitting his A-levels.

He has an offer to study Classics, which is a 4 year course (at Oxford).

Before applying he was uhming and ahing if to apply to Law or Classics. The school managed to convince him to study Classics in the end, as past pupils seem to dislike Law.
His end goal is to become a Lawyer and he is involved in a few Legal extra curriculars/networking events.

He’s come to me tonight to say that he wants to study Law as undergrad instead. He does obviously know that he could do the GDL but in his view it’s 6 years of study vs 4.

He’s planning on finishing his A level exams, having a think and then possibly emailing different Law schools to ask if they accept very late applications. (I don’t suspect many of worth will). He has his eyes on the Bristol Law course as he goes to a school eligible for the contextual offer that he’d meet quite comfortably (In theory!)

The only other option I can think of, is a Gap year, which he doesn’t want. Or, perhaps to email his future Oxford college and ask if he could be considered for Law instead.

Any advice?

Same as Pluckedpencil, Oxford Classicist here. The course structure alone means your son is very capable of having a fun time if he’s that way inclined. 3 summer terms without exams makes the Oxford experience particularly excellent.

I have a friend who applied to Oxford to read law, and got rejected. He reapplied the following year for Classics, got in, performed well, and is now a barrister. He’s happy with how it turned out - he knew he wanted to have law as a career, and he was passionate about Classics, so he’s not feeling the lack of a law degree.

I can only echo what many posters have said - a 2.1 in XYZ degree at Oxford is going to stand your son in better stead than a 2.1 in Law at another one when he first enters the world of work, whether that’s as a lawyer or something else.

There is no disadvantage in not doing law (unless it's advanced knitting with CCC and London Met or its equivalent). I still think it's about 50/50 law degree / non law degree. If you look at Brick Court chambers young barristers which is a set I often instruct they have a fair few with a law degree (and non law too) - we only mention the bar because the CVs are on line so easy to view which is not the same with the London law firms (or at least not so easy to glean unless you come across a linked in profile).

The poor boy the subject of the thread needs to finish his A levels, then probably call Oxford and ask if they allow a switch from his subject to law. If not probably best he sticks with his 4 year classics degree in that case unless he really hates the idea. I don't think there are that many places reading law in the better universities in clearing though so if he can't just switch course at Oxford he is probably going to find he has to have a gap year.

Xenia since you mention Brick Court - and yes it's exactly because all the CVs are readily accessible and online - the twelve most recent tenants (a good measure, because approx one to five years' call) are eleven law at undergrad: one PPE. None of these figures are bolstering the case for non law as 'actively preferred'.

(I think it may well be that the good sets at the Bar like 1sts and those who get 1sts in law quite regularly do the LLM or BCL and the Bar likes those too, and of course non law graduates can't do postgrad law so there may be an element of skew - but not likely to be so much as to make one think undergraduate law degrees are somehow 'actively not preferred').

Dear OP, I have nothing to add to the law/non-law argument but please reassure your DC that Oxford is really, really fun. I'm collecting DD's stuff this weekend for the long vac (called 'summer' in the real world) and she is having the time of her life. Oxford students go clubbing just like any other uni students. If I were to compare DD's experience to my DS's experience at a non-Oxbridge uni, I think (allowing for different personalities) DD had so many more opportunities to try new things and had a significantly better academic experience. Better support. Better facilities. There's a lot to be said for a place where everyone wants to be there, feels lucky to be there and has a real interest and curiosity about their subject. The tutorial and Collegiate system is brilliant not least because they chose their students. They aren't a body on a seat in a lecture theatre and aren't allowed to be. Honestly, DS could have disappeared for weeks and nobody would have noticed.

There is a certain amount of support to change subjects at Oxbridge, but they are wise to the "I think I'll get in with Classics and then switch to something more competitive..." plan.

Not that OP's ds intends to do this, but they did mention this as I suppose they may have had a deluge of Norse & Celtic people trying to change to English once they'd got in.

Good point.
(On the barrister point I don't want people to think all chambers and all solicitors have quite the qualifications level of Brick Court barristers though. Even so about half and half law and non law degrees is probably correct for most London law jobs I suspect)

Asleep good luck with your career change. I think that it’s quite difficult for England & Wales qualified lawyers to give advice on the system and job market in Oz unfortunately as it’s different even though the law itself is similar. I have a friend who was a journalist and went into law aged about 35 ish. She now specialises in media law, so she used her experience and contacts to progress quickly. I think with family and migration you will have to accept hard work and bad pay for a rewarding área (unless you do high net worth family and immigration for people transferring to Oz with big companies). But I think that age discrimination is pretty frowned on in most western countries nowadays so you shouldn’t be at a disadvnatabe having had another career first, quite the opposite in fact. Maybe an Aussie lawyer will see this and be able to advise.

As DD is a Family Barrister, I can assure you it’s ultra hard work (14 plus hour days and weekend work to prep for Monday) and stressful - Asleep. The pay is good though because she’s in court nearly every day of the week. I don’t think family or mediation is without high stress levels! The nature of the work rather acts against that. You have to be mentally tough to do family! I would imagine Oz family law wouldn’t be a bed of roses either.

No, I’m not a lawyer, I’m an accountant. I posted on the thread as DD had a similar dilemma and was advised not to do law, by her dad, godfather and several family friends (all solicitors). To be met by an insane amount of rudeness. They’re much more civilised on the Oxbridge thread OP.

Good luck to your son, Op :)

I think, Thesearepearls, that you have asserted something relatives and acquaintances have told you is fact. It’s not. They are a small number of professionals who have opinions but statistics tell a different picture. I’m sure your DD is so well connected and brilliant that it won’t matter anyway! Unlike mine who knew no-one, RG educated, and put in the hard yards!

Thanks for the advice! I'm going to think hard in the next few months and if I end up going for my practising cert

Pearls, in fairness goodbye has been all over the Oxbridge thread, certainly the original one at any rate, and has I believe always been civilised. She has a direct way of writing (I find in these boards if you don’t pepper your comments with a few emojis it’s alarmingly easy to mistake the tone of other people’s posts! ) but I hadn’t noticed her ever being uncivilised.

Hingle thank you. I've been on the Oxbridge threads with monotonous regularity for some years, for obvious reasons (DC applying to Oxford :)). In fairness I can be perhaps overly direct when people are pompous. (And then there's a tiny number of posters who sometimes get weirdly personal - almost always Oxbridge medicine related - and then I'm easily capable of standing up to myself, I hope without sinking to their level). True to say that I've never given a virtual single bunch of flowers :(

In fact Hingle, vaguely on topic, but since you're here, how would you suggest DD4 teaches herself latin? She's Y11 now and is very seriously thinking of Classics at uni (yes and possibly Law :)) and wants to do DIY latin to GCSE. Expensive tutoring not an option. Is the Cambridge Latin Project any good, or is it sniffed at by traditionalists? Advice appreciated from anyone who knows about this stuff because I certainly don't.

Ds taught himself to GCSE with Cambridge Latin and found it easy. He almost took it at A Level (at sixth form college, his school did not teach it) but felt that he would be up against (in public exams) students who had been doing the more traditional stuff since they were 7 years old. Now he is at Oxbridge he says the Classicists did all go to public schools.

Never been given a bunch of flowers? Then let me be the first - !

I’m going to attempt to DM you goodbye so as not to detail the thread.

Irma, a shame your lad didn’t go for it, he could have bucked the trend!

Thanks very much for that Irma - helpful to know it's straightforward. And thanks for the PM Hingle!

Could I be especially cheeky and ask for a pm too please?

DS is yet to receive any info regarding latin learning, bar the summer schools of course.

It’s not cheeky at all duckegg, I’d be more than happy to. What would you like to know about? Is your son doing Latin from scratch at Oxford?

Thank you

He’ll be doing it from scratch at Ox in Oct. (If he does go!)

Are there any resources that you’d recommend?

From scratch - what a legend!

I’ll pm you my musings.

I hope he has an incredible time there @duckeggblu

If anything, it'll set him up for a career in whatever area he wants just through networking and reputation. The people he'll meet and befriend will definitely be able to help him get ahead, as well as the tutors and professors

Law is competitive and the people who show they are the most well rounded (grades, societies, legal experience, volunteering etc) are the ones who get the plum jobs. I opted out when I was studying as it just was too cutthroat for me - but know plenty of people who used their time at uni not just to study but to scope out everything they needed to get ahead

MC lawyer here. I can’t speak for the bar but we recruit both law and non law graduates in equal numbers from a range of universities. We look for bright candidates with good interpersonal skills and have a tailored LPC that all the graduates undertake. We then support and teach them once they start their training contracts.

This thread has been interesting to read and I think everyone is entitled to share their views.

I'd like to go back and do the Norse and Celtic course. Didn't know that existed when I chose Classics!!

I know three Oxbridge classicists who did law conversion courses.
Two worked hard, made a lot of money, and then left to become teachers. The other one is still in law, very successful, but very unhappy.

Given how stressful law is, it's worth considering what your ds might want to do if he tires of it as a job. Having a subject that is teachable (and generally in very naice schools) is no bad thing.