Son has an offer for Classics but really wants to study Law?

[duckeggblu]

Hi all,

DS is in middle of sitting his A-levels.

He has an offer to study Classics, which is a 4 year course (at Oxford).

Before applying he was uhming and ahing if to apply to Law or Classics. The school managed to convince him to study Classics in the end, as past pupils seem to dislike Law.
His end goal is to become a Lawyer and he is involved in a few Legal extra curriculars/networking events.

He’s come to me tonight to say that he wants to study Law as undergrad instead. He does obviously know that he could do the GDL but in his view it’s 6 years of study vs 4.

He’s planning on finishing his A level exams, having a think and then possibly emailing different Law schools to ask if they accept very late applications. (I don’t suspect many of worth will). He has his eyes on the Bristol Law course as he goes to a school eligible for the contextual offer that he’d meet quite comfortably (In theory!)

The only other option I can think of, is a Gap year, which he doesn’t want. Or, perhaps to email his future Oxford college and ask if he could be considered for Law instead.

Any advice?

ScottishDiblet academic law is incredibly interesting, not dry at all. It might not be to everyone's taste including some of those who signed up for it - but it's not 'dry'.

Obviously, subjects aren't thinking or non-thinking. Classics is just very multidisciplinary so it demonstrates thinking about many things at once. No disrespect to those who Law undergrad at all, Goodbyestranger.

No not directed at you at all horsemadmom but there does seem to be a pervasive myth that doing law at undergrad is a) a positive disadvantage and b) dull - neither of which are true.

My Oxford DC do all say that the Classics degree is incredibly hard though, so it's bound to garner respect.

Thank you all so much for your words and advice. Also thanks to those who offered to speak to ds.

I’m not goint to tell him any thing off here until he finishes his exams and stress levels come down(!)

I think part of it is also that he wants to have the “normal” university experience; clubbing, living out, “having fun”(as he puts it).

duckeggblu - and I suspect horsemadmom, also with a DC as a current student - will agree with me that it's entirely possible and very, very usual to have what your DS envisages as a 'normal' university experience if he goes to Oxford. The majority of my DC have spent time living out (some have had to - no choice), all of them did the clubbing thing and absolutely not one failed to have an enormous amount of fun. It sounds to me as though your DS is listening to some poor advice. It would be a great shame not to take a good offer on the back of misinformed, or not fully informed, myths.

Thanks goodbye. I think he needs not to listen to everyone complain about the workload etc. I’ve been trawling the web and some other colleges alternative prospectsus’ (Looking at you Wadham) seem so much fun to me! Perhaps it’s that his college isn’t great for that kind of thing, or it is that they’re more studious/conservative.

Sorry an earlier point...

His Classics course is 4 years +GDL 1 year + LPC/BPTC 1 year = 6
vs
Law at 3 + LPC= 4

He’s not too sure what sort of Law, he’s very intimidated by the bar so I think an international law firm looks more likely. He enjoyed IP before but , that was only a day!

Are there any particular areas where Classicists tend to congregate in the world of law?

My daughters didn't read law (one did ancient history the other geog - neither at Oxbridge) and both are lawyers in London. I read law and did law and still love it. About half of the lawyers in good law firms read law. My sons (twins at Bristol) both have friends reading law there.

I don't know much about changing subjects. It sounds like he would like to stay with his Oxford choice and that is going to be best for law, no doubt at all about that. So I would try to find out if he can change subjects but there. I would no recommend he changes to a different university even if he saves 2 years. By the way it is not wrong to do what he wants - I deliberately read law because I wanted to get through studying years quickly (I graduated in law aged 20 and qualified when I was 23); other people really enjoy quite a few years of studying, do additional degrees, spin it all out. Neither is right or wrong. I really enjoyed my law degree and in my view got a depth and knowledge of law I would not have got just doing the GDL and LPC although my daughters might disagree with me and what people say above that classics is a good choice are certainly correct.

I bet lots of student ask this at Oxford - can I change subject so it might be worth looking on their website etc. In my day if once you arrived you wanted to change in the first few days and there was space and yo uhave the grades if it were a harder to get on course you could sometimes switch

Classics at Oxford is more prestigious & will advance his career more than a last minute late application somewhere less sought-after.

Also Oxford is brilliant.

Yes Classicists tend to gather at the Bar! I'd advise him not to be intimidated yet - get involved in moots at Oxford (he's got four years after all!) and just see how it goes.

duckeggblu you're welcome to PM me the name of the college in question but obviously you may prefer not to. It may be that one of my DC has been to the same one and can re-assure you and therefore your DS, or that they know its reputation/ the reality through their close friends.

He may need to check exactly what he can do at Oxford regarding building up his Law CV. As a linguist, DD (not Oxford) wasn’t allowed to do moots, even though she wanted to be a barrister. Legal events and societies can be exclusively for law students. So he may need to be a self starter if he isn’t allowed to participate. DD didn’t do a single moot until BPTC. However she did loads of relevant volunteering.

Bristol is strong for Law. Top students can certainly do well from there. However I think generally Classics from Oxford would have the edge but not in every legal career where personality and other attributes are taken into account just as much as the Oxford/Bristol degree. Unless he really does not want Classics any longer, I would advise staying put. I think changing courses is a very long shot. It’s not necessary. However the GDL is very fast paced and you will never know the amount of law that Law grads do! It’s inevitable but it doesn’t matter.

Bear in mind that the process of becoming a lawyer is going to change by the time he finishes uni - probably from 2020 ish

Look up the SRA changes - so basically instead of doing GDL or LPC/going for a training contract the process will be broken down into exams and 2 years of training that can be done at a law firm/volunteer work and so on

You don't need a law degree to start the process of becoming a lawyer

It will change his planned timeline as by the time he finished his Classics degree the changes are expected to be in place

Also Oxford will always open doors. It's a sad shitty fact but that name on his CV will get him ahead farther than Bristol law - just on name recognition with the big firms, companies and even internationally

But the big thing to keep in mind is the changes to becoming a solicitor and that GDL/LPC will be replaced in a few years. They're consulting on changes for barrister pathways too I believe

He needs to do what he's passionate about. In terms of getting a training contract, his grades at undergrad are far more important than the subject studied. The number of people I work with with firsts is very high and I'm in a large international but not MC.

That said university matters as well but I'd say a first from Bristol is better than a 2.1 from Oxford.

My concern would be where he can find a place now. He might get lucky but realistically he's going to need to take a gap year if he wants a place at one of the top 5 or so law schools.

Is your son worried he won't have a good social life at Oxford? In my experience Oxford has students who heavily socialise and those who don't - just like everywhere else.

In my day (a good while ago) it was much more competitive to get into oxford for law than classics. So getting accepted for classics doesn’t mean he would have for law

He could consider speaking to the law tutors and asking that if a place becomes available (another student misses grades) then they consider him but this does run the risk of really pissing off the classics tutors.

TBH if he is at he sort of school that teaches Latin a level I assume they have plenty of oxford experience so would be wanting their honest view as to whether he would have benched for law.

Either way I would stay at oxford rather than go elsewhere. The opportunities are incredible both there and how it sets you up for future jobs. And you can have just as much fun as you like as long as you’re willing to work hard too.

Definitely, definitely do not pass up a place at Oxford. As another poster has said, it shouldn't be like this but it definitely is: all prestigious law firms prize an Oxbridge degree more highly than Bristol/Exeter/Durham/other good universities. Once he's got that on his CV, doors will open for him which otherwise may or may not. It really should not be the case in this day and age, but that is a fact.

Actually I don’t think doors stay open because of Oxford on the cv if the other attributes are not up to scratch. It might get you an interview but it’s hugely competitive. What Oxbridge does usually mean though, if you are going in for a Law career after your degree, you are probably ferociously bright and these universities have these people in larger numbers. 40% of barristers are Oxbridge. It’s not about the door being open, it’s having what it takes to get through it!

Agree with what you say Bubblesbuddy but the door does have to open in the first place. I have seen plenty of perfectly good candidates with 2:1s from Russell Group universities not even get an interview at my firm (a top 20 firm), but Oxford and Cambridge 2:1s and above always get an interview. What they then do with the interview is obviously a matter of personality.

It is very tough on applicants for training contracts these days and in my experience having Oxbridge on the CV definitely opens doors in law more than other universities.

Bubbles of course it doesn’t get you a job if you aren’t up to scratch on other attributes but it is getting the interview in the first place that is key and that is whether an oxford degree is an advantage.

I’m not sure what the Oxbridge ratios are for grads in the top 20 City solicitors - I just know for Barristers. DD is RG and had two pupillage interviews and got one of them. Other friends are all Oxbridge or RG. A first from Durham, UCL, Bristol, Warwick and a handful of others really won’t hold you back because it’s the non RG that are almost non existent! There’s a pecking order of RG too!

Queen Mary usually have places in clearing. In Cambridge it is also common to switch courses-he may be able to do the same. Ultinately a first in classics plus good gdl is worth more than a law degree from a rubbish university. A1() :7

I did mean to add that it is about time recruitment procedures were university blind. Many employers are filtering by on line tests so university doesn’t open the first door.

Agree with Bubbles. It's getting through the door which matters. I strongly disagree that a 2.1 guarantees interviews at the Magic Circle firms or at good chambers. A 2.2 from Oxford will also rule you out in a way a 2.1 from elsewhere won't. So many myths are peddled around these things. Plenty of Oxbridge graduates struggle after uni because they haven't added anything more to their CV. For many top chambers a 2.1 from Oxbridge on its own won't suffice - you need a First or a very high 2.1 plus postgrad from a top uni or other really top notch experience.