Son has an offer for Classics but really wants to study Law?

[duckeggblu]

Hi all,

DS is in middle of sitting his A-levels.

He has an offer to study Classics, which is a 4 year course (at Oxford).

Before applying he was uhming and ahing if to apply to Law or Classics. The school managed to convince him to study Classics in the end, as past pupils seem to dislike Law.
His end goal is to become a Lawyer and he is involved in a few Legal extra curriculars/networking events.

He’s come to me tonight to say that he wants to study Law as undergrad instead. He does obviously know that he could do the GDL but in his view it’s 6 years of study vs 4.

He’s planning on finishing his A level exams, having a think and then possibly emailing different Law schools to ask if they accept very late applications. (I don’t suspect many of worth will). He has his eyes on the Bristol Law course as he goes to a school eligible for the contextual offer that he’d meet quite comfortably (In theory!)

The only other option I can think of, is a Gap year, which he doesn’t want. Or, perhaps to email his future Oxford college and ask if he could be considered for Law instead.

Any advice?

Right goodbyestranger

I quote from Semperidem "The preference now is more for people who have done the conversion course after a different degree, both at law firms and in chambers"

Semperidem and I are saying the same thing. You're being rude and accusing me of spreading misinformation.

Heartfelt apologies for mistaking you for being a bloke btw

See, I thought you were so rude and patronising that you could only be a bloke

Sorry about that

I refer you to Blackstone's Thesearepearls, as one example. You're welcome to trawl yourself since the CVs of current young lawyers might help you understand that there really is no great advantage either way.

It's neutral and about a type of thinking and the aptitude for law in the particular setting and all the other personal qualities too. Neither is better per se.

"might help you to understand"

I'm literally speechless. You don't seem to be able to open your mouth without being patronising. I can only excuse this by thinking you must have had a glass or two.

I'll ask you one thing - have you done well in your career? Where are you now? It's a pertinent question.

Oh please. Bloke. Drinking. So puerile. I'm a girl and have had a lemon flavoured Sanpellegrino tonight.

I'm simply saying that chambers all have their junior tenants' CVs on tap. Check out the facts yourself - hard evidence.

Blackstones is one set though.

The general preference, across the board has been for non law grads. Ultimately law degrees will become purely academic degrees. My own lecturers were saying that when I began my degree in the late 00’s.

Caveat laborem! Oxford Classicist (14 years after matriculation!). It is a tough course, the exams at the end are brutal. Not "oh no, I can't take my anthology in with me" brutal, more like "three hour exam, vomit, drink water, go back for next three hour exam" brutal, for days and days, and everything pinned on those two weeks. The course is nice and varied though, and we didn't have to keep getting dressed up in suits like the lawyers in order to schmooze with law societies. My friend did the law conversion course and was made partner pretty quickly in London with her Oxford English degree. All my classicist friends have good and satisfying careers, and interestingly all totally different. I got a job in manufacturing of all areas and now work in translation because it suits my current situation, another friend is a Harvard professor now, another is in the Forbes top 40 under 40 for his internet Rightmove type business, another is a music producer. Classics at Oxford is not a vocational degree, it is a golden magical key that really does open doors even in this day and age, maybe that applies to all Oxford degrees.
On a practical note, a friend on my course realised almost immediately that Classics was not for him, and he was moved swiftly onto the PPE course. Once you're in, they don't let you go without trying to help you first, and if that means a course swap, they do try.
Tell your son that lots of Classicists do live out (I did, two years) and that even the Oxford goodie goodies walk home drunken and barefoot from the little clubs in the town centre, students are students wherever you go!

Can I just reiterate that the process of becoming a lawyer in England is changing? The LPC, GDL etc routes are going to be obsolete in a few years so I really suggest your son take that into account

I just asked you a question, which is to ask where you are now in your career. I wanted you to explain that to the thread to give some perspective. Where are you in your career? You can explain that without giving any details that would identify yourself. Are you working?

I’m a lawyer. I’m laughing at the notion that a degree in Latin/Greek will help at all.

Once in practice I have needed to know the meaning of a Latin term. I googled it.

Just one thing to add, regardless of law or not law in your degree name, the bit that gets your foot firmly wedged in the door of a training contract is Oxford or Cambridge. If he wants to do law, his Oxford offer is going to trump a law degree anywhere else. It is clearly bollocks and elitism, but unfortunately that is the world in which we live.

A legal family 🤦🏻‍♀️ This thread is bonkers.

Why is it that Oxford threads often get so argumentative? I wonder what the common denominator is? 🧐

The Oxbridge entrance thread is very kindly - and the OP might be best posting there. It's full of gentle parents worrying about the grades that their DC have to achieve to get in. Plus actually there are lots of knowledgeable parents who give you useful tips about STEP and other things such as grade boundaries, how to help your DC to give their best etc.

Seattle

To this day I have people ask me to “tell them Latin”, as though a law degree also acts as a language course for a dead language 🤨

We're actively told to not use Latin now. Move is to plain English. The only Latin I actually use is pari paribus.

I think the poster above is right - some interviewers and firms prefer non-law, some prefer law, some prefer Oxbridge, some actuallh prefer non-Oxbridge (I had one TC interview where they had taken against me before I started and pretty certain it was linked to that). However, I don't see how an English degree would actively help - maybe some science subjects for particular areas of law. I think non-law is good because you have a fall back position if you don't get a TC or change your mind. Yes you can do other things with a law degree as well but you won't have to justify why you havent done law!

He needs to do what he wants to do and work hard at it.

Threads like this give lawyers a bad name... lucky we aren't charging by the hour for arguing a point that the client the OP couldn't care less about.

Yes this has rather turned into a bunfight!

Although my personal view is that, unless you have a deep love of the law as an academic subject, it is probably better to study something else, there are plenty of law grads in the top City firms. As someone involved in recruitment at a City firm though, I would say it is definitely true that what stands out is the calibre of the degree. A 2.1 from Oxford is considered "better" than a 2.1 from Bristol. That fact may be objectionable to many, but it is a fact.

For what it is worth, 59% of new tennants in barristers' chambers were Oxbridge educated in 2016/7. The other aspect to take into account is what area of law does a young person actually want? Some barristers are very niche and recruit people with a deep knowledge of that field. They are more concerned about background, eg planning, medical negligence etc than where the degree is from. There are openings for non Oxbridge grads and there are stats that tell you which chambers give tennancies to the most Oxbridge grads if you want to go in that direction. At the bar, there is a slight bias towards Law degrees, for recent tenants, at the moment in the latest stats I saw. Quoting individual chambers and family anecdotes does not really give the full picture. I could give you highly ranked chambers in their field where there are no Oxbridge recent tenants!

I do think some under grad subjects need a warning though. Criminology and quite a few others are off the radar. I think Oxbridge is over represented because it has the biggest concentration of very bright people who want a career in law. However, even if you have a starred first in Classics from Cambridge, life can get tough if you do not even make it through to the end of the pupillage year because you have been let go early! (As happened to DD's friend). She's got tenancy elsewhere now. No degree is a guarantee of anything, but some help more than others!

I tend to agree with Goodbyestranger. There is no advantage in not doing law, unless the recruiter is actively seeking people with a specialism or the student has done a huge amount of "work" in the field in which they intend to practice. The stats seem to show it is about even. The GDL is giving you the bones of law, but there is no flesh on it, so experience and/or expertise is going to help massively. Therefore if you study Classics, English or History you do have to consider which pathway is best for you and which specialism you would like if you are going to be a barrister. If you want Magic Circle, it seems to be getting through any pre selection tests. I note Goodbye thinks Oxbridge candidates do better at them as well, and I am not surprised. The tests are presumably designed to filter out the weakest candidates!

Only around 400 students a year study Law at Oxbridge and obviously the RG universities have very many more students plus the ones who want to do Law via the GDL. It is more likely that Oxbridge candidates get where they want to be above others and some areas of law clearly prefer a degree in law. It is fiercely competitive so getting all your ducks in a row is paramount for the type of law you want.

Yes it is one set Semperldem but if you trawl through other sets you'll see that there is no 'active preference' for non law grads. I idly picked on 3 Paper Buildings over my cornflakes as a different type of set and found exactly the same ratio for the last twelve barristers recruited to a tenancy: 9 law, 3 non law. When things are trotted out which are just not correct, it's worth correcting them and checking out some facts. Repeating something doesn't make it correct.

Classics is a good degree for law not so that you can fling out some exotic latin phrase in your opening speech but because it's a brute.

Thesearepearls the OP may well simply want some correct facts rather than hugs.

I am sorry, I really didn’t mean to cause heated disagreements. Although I do suppose it shows how competitive lawyers are!

In regard to “finding an area”, I would presume that ‘material culture’ law to be even more competitive? That is to say art law etc

(Sorry not a lawyer- as I’m sure you can tell!)

You absolutely didn't cause any arguments OP! I don't think Thesearepearls has a legal background, she simply comes from a 'legal family', whatever that is.

I really hope your DS decides to go with his offer and gets to change if he wants to, in time. He can't lose, tbh, but he's definitely better off sticking with Oxford.

Art law is very niche, OP. As an indication, my firm is a large international firm based in the City and there is just one fine art specialist in the firm. Assuming your DS would be looking at art law from a litigation perspective, he should look at firms with strong litigation practices and aim to do at least one seat in general litigation practice.

Also, often what people think they want to do before they start training ends up being very different to what they choose at the end of their training. I thought I wanted to be a family lawyer. After some experience of family law, I couldn't think of anything worse! I am now a technology disputes lawyer. I would never have predicted that when I went to law school.

As pp have said, Oxford and Cambridge tend to be quite supportive if you want to change subject at the end of your first year. I'd suggest starting with Classics, seeing how it goes and exploring switching to law later if that's still what your ds wants.

This is a total generalisation but classics students tend to be nicer than law students. I'm still glad I read history not law so I didn't have to hang out with the lawyers at Cambridge!

Given there are so many lawyers on this thread - maybe someone can advise me quickly? I did a law degree and didn't practise, now I'm at a loose end as my last career path (finance journalism) is stressing me out & really affecting my MH

I'm thinking of being admitted as a lawyer (in Oz so different process to the UK) and trying to find work. What I remember from law school is how wildly competitive it was and how I'm years behind my cohort because I put all my energies to getting into the media

How can I get back on track? I think I would be interested in immigration law or family law , I have emailed migration firms in my city to get volunteer work / do the compulsory legal placement but they fill up earlier in the year so I've left it late

I'm not interested in corporate law, migration & family sound both practical & useful. I did some volunteer work and did a student placement at Legal Aid and loved it

I also was told by a lecturer who graded a moot I did that I should think about becoming a barrister but that sounds even harder...

Cheers all