Medicine 2018 part 3

[SomersetS]

Hope you all find this - didn't realise I took 999! Whoops.

SomersetS Urgh! My DD in the exact same boat. 4 offers and she missed her Chemistry grade. She actually did the IB rather than A levels so she's had her results since early July. Her heart was absolutely set on Birmingham (so much so that her boyfriend applied to do Law there on her recommendation alone- and got an unconditional offer!) and it's heartbreaking that she needs to redo SO much of what had already gone well like UKCAT, PS, Interview etc etc. She'll retake in Nov. Reapplying to those that welcome retake will take some strategic planning! She's got her head around it all and is trying to see the upside of an unexpected gap year but it'll be tough seeing all her mates going off to uni in a few weeks while she revises her Year 13 Chemistry😩😩!

Mamamedic - unfortunately the selection process has its drawbacks and the children pay a huge price for it ..
I never understood till now how stressful the whole process is and this can't be right for the DCs mental health.
Some families put so much pressure on their kids on top of this... we wonder why young people have self harm, anorexia and anxiety issues!!
I am not saying that there should be no competition but it should be based on the ability, intelligence and not based on random factors. I think that having a compulsory pre med degree as in US is not a bad idea at all !

Mamamedic, DD decided late to take a gap year and luckily her medical school allowed her to defer her place. She is very glad she did as illness over the summer before Yr13 plus Yr 13 itself (she was one of those who did not have an interview until March, which was awful), meant she wanted a breather.

She was a chalet host (her firm allowed you to return to the UK for interviews, albeit at your own expense) and then a Camp Counsellor for Camp America. She had to work very hard and did not earn much, but really enjoyed spending time outside education. For various reasons, not course related, her first year has been rocky, and that extra year of maturity and experience has really helped.

The competition at this level is inevitable when medicine continues to attract so many young people. Resilience has to be biggest assessment test except for those who manage to excel both in academic, intellectual tests as well as having the personality traits and interviewing skills.

Most applicants will find one aspect easiest, one OK and one more challenging. For DD the interviewing part was the easy part, the ukcat/BMAT the okish one. The one she had to work the hardest on was the grades as although she knew her subjects very well, she found the concept of expressing it on paper difficult.

Most will go through the experience of adrenalin rushes and crashes hence building resilience as they go through it all. This really is the test of whether they can sustain the demands of the growing pressures of the NHS. Most medics I know have said that the demands of the application process are so much more than what they've gone through themselves but that the resilience they now need as doctors has also multiplied in the last decade.

Going through it with DD I really have full admiration for all those who go through it stage after stage whatever the outcome.

Somerset so glad to read your DD is OK now and hope she recovers fully soon.

I agree with swing that most aspiring medics will struggle with one element of the application process, whilst finding others straightforward. DD had no problem with grades, interviews, or filling out her PS with lots of relevent stuff. UKCAT was her problem.

And its here that I have an argument. As earlier posters suggest, many medical schools have a UKCAT cut-off hovering around the 670 mark. Sub-optimal conditions at a test centre, or simply an off day, might easily push results down 10 marks. I would also argue that extra time, given the test itself is long, does little to level the playing field for those with SEN. 10 few marks and a score around the 660 mark can mean no interviews, rather than the four that applicants with 670 have received. Yes, you might have a bad station at an MMI, but hopefully you shine at your second interview.

I think it also presents a problem for medical schools, as it means that they are all fishing from the same pond, and catching the same applicants. An applicant who has four interviews will attend in case they need a fall back. An applicant with one is almost certain to take up any offer.

And what is UKCAT testing? We know a couple who got almost top marks. One practiced every day for six months - in fairness he had an odd mix of A levels so was limited in where he could apply so could not afford to leave his UKCAT score to chance. Another was fearsomely bright but not an obvious medic. He happily admitted he was not interested in medicine, but that this was what his parents wanted and that with his cultural background their views mattered. Even he was bemused to get SJ1. On the margins, informed parents/schools with the ability to pay for/provide tuition will get an applicant those vital 10 marks. And does the UKCAT really deliver the right people, and does it deliver sufficient diversity of skills and aptitudes to match the full range of roles within the NHS? Who decided on the skills that were to be tested, and is anyone looking at the correlation between UKCAT scores and subsequent performance.
Cambridge University have looked at the correlation between BMAT and subsequent performance www.cao.cam.ac.uk/sites/www.cao.cam.ac.uk/files/ar_predictive_effectiveness_of_metrics_in_admission.pdf. Even though BMAT is a more academic test, perhaps linking better with the Cambridge course, the correlation is only described at "positive" not even "good", in contrast to the correlation between GCSE/AS performance and subsequent performance in "Tripos".

I suspect the unpredictability of UKCAT will also hinder aspiring medics from finding the right fit. DD comes from an urban background, she is academic but dyslexic. She learns better by being in a classroom than through self study. She wanted to study in a City, on a reasonably structured course with a relatively academic focus. She made an early decision to only apply to places which had a good fit, even though she recognised that in practice she was only filling in three lines on her UCAS form, and if need be try again this time taking BMAT which was likely to be less tricky. Yes, she may well have got a place at SGUL or Plymouth, and indeed she went to the SGUL open day wanting to like it, but the fit was not there. She was lucky that at the time Bristol did not use UKCAT and prioritised A level predicitons and PS. That door is now closed.

Yes there is luck in the process, but my belief is that the heavy reliance on UKCAT is preventing medical schools from identifying the best applicants and, preventing some of the best applicants from getting places. Perhaps the solution might be to accept that UKCAT is essentially forming a filter function to access NHS training, and to set up a broader, more nuanced and tested filter to include school performance to provide a wider pool of suitable applicants that medical schools can then fish from. In the same way that CSSB identifies and allocates Civil Service trainees.

Would be interesting to know whether there have been any studies on whether UKCAT has any impact (positive or negative) on widening participation goals? (No view either way, and no prospect whatever of having a dc applying to do medicine! - but is always interesting to know what the impact on diversity is of 'extra' entrance tests.)

Well, I was shocked when heard about a girl who has her place for interview for 2019 Medicine in two different universities as she is on an access scheme. I don't want to give too much information as it is not fair on that child. Even before my experience with UKCAT, I thought it is an unfair advantage.

My Dd also said that a significant proportion of her class has some sort of special circumstances which allow them special privilege at exams. She goes to an academic school and I think parents/ schools use these provisions, which are genuinely meant to help suitable children, use it otherwise!

A bit of a divert, but a friend's DC has bombed UKCAT. Where might they apply. Good kid, no problem with academics, and it looks as if the door is now closed. Ironically they did worst on the section that they had done best on in practice.

Anecdotally I hear that the numbers applying for medicine in traditionally academic private schools, especially boys, has started to plummet. In part, I suspect because there is a sense that the medical profession now prefers a different profile of applicant to the traiditional middle class white male. I hope that this has been driven by common sense not PCness. The aim should be to recruit those with the most potential.Those that get through the next 7 or 8 years deserve their qualification regardless of background.

I assume that whilst medical school places are oversubscribed with good applicants, it won't really matter, except to the unsucessful applicants. However it would be interesting to know whether drop out rates at medical school and in the early stages of careers have risen, and whether there is any way of unpicking the figures to work out how much is down to tougher working conditions and how much down to a change in the profile of medical students and why. Not least, and based on observation, medical schools might consider offering morre initial support/hand holding to non traditional/contextual recruits. It would also be interesting, given the population dip and the expansion of places, whether medical schools are worried that the UKCAT filter will deliver sufficient suitable applicants.

Just a thing. Getting on an access scheme is not open to the majority, state or private. You have to go to a pretty underperforming school to qualify, and therefore have made the grades despite your school. Most state school and private school kids are subject to the same procedure - as they should be.
My DD hated UKCAT, is quiet but found MMIs OK (she did a lot of listening - might have been a good thing ??), and studied hard to get the grades. She just got on with it, no help from us (except for cuddles and transport before she could drive), little help from college and no pressure. I'd prefer her to be a plumber than enter the NHS, but I'm very proud of her for doing so.

No system will be perfect but, having now spoken to admissions people on open days, I think they are looking for caring, committed young people who are resilient and self reliant. And there are too many of these to take.

Oh and needsmoreskeep, friend of DDs bombed UKCAT last year (520) so did BMAT and ended up with 2 offers and is starting at Brighton next month. He's lovely and will make a fantastic doctor. Another friend aced UKCAT (750+) but applied really badly and got not offers to start, then Bristol took after initial rejection, but he didn't make the grades.

Needsmoresleep - does he have good GSCEs, if so Cardiff and Birmingham can be considered as they don't emphasise on UKCAT that much.

Keele - if he has a lot of work experience
Plymouth- candidates with low UKCAT scores get in based on experience last few years

Any competitive process will see people seeking ways to get an edge on the mass. Its human nature. DD has a friend who got a contextual offer just because she went to a state school although a highly performing one and lived for a year on a street that fell under the deprived category as her parents divorced and her mum was living there waiting for the million pound property to be sold. She'd got 10 A* GCSE and over 700 at the ukcat so highly capable but if it wasn't for the contextual offer she wouldn't have got in as she got a a B in chemistry. Will she make less of a doctor? I don't think so she is a lovely clever and determined girl.

A poor ukcat result feels like the end of the world at the time but it isn't in the scheme of things. St George and Plymouth accept lower ukcat and then there is still the BMAT and/or applying again the following year. Most applicants I know had ups but also big lows in the process. These lows are disheartening but those who succeed whether in Medicine or a different career are those who get back up quickly after a meltdown and turn their energy towards their new goal rather than hanging in the unfairness of the outcome.

The positive attitude of some youngsters is a real inspiration. I certainly have more of a tendency for self pity than does my DD!

Needsmoresleep, similar with DD's school friend, low UKCAT but good BMAT, ended up with two offers including Kings (slight issue DD's school completely got Biology wrong with new A level spec but this friend had a foundation place too? - not sure how that works).

My DCs have attended a mix of private and state, on balance a bright hardworking child should do well wherever, but the reality is there are some poor teachers in both sectors who don't teach according to the spec etc. additionally at A level at DS private school, every child in that class had at least a B but usually an A or A* in their A level subject, so it was taught at pace that suited all and meant lots of time to do past papers. DDs state school had strugglers even in science classes because the school could not ask for higher than a B at GSCE - this slowed the pace and meant some just mucked about and didn't take classes seriously - there is no doubt this impacted the whole class. I have learned my lesson too late, when in doubt get outside help for DCs.

As for social engineering, the school has to be seriously low performing, there is table that Bristol used to use - I know this from when I worked in educational publishing, it is based on exam results. In order to get a lower offer you need that plus one other marker, i.e. low parental education levels, being in care etc. Very few meet this criteria. Although I would be very happy to think that a DC who has been in care and at a poor performing school applied to medical school, got a decent UKCAT score and a place with ABB.

I do agree there are too many playing the system, I have seen the extra time used for both those who desperately need it and have done since primary school to those who suddenly discover they need an assessment just before GSCEs and get extra time for every exam including UKCAT. I don't understand how two DCs at different ends of say dyslexia spectrum get equal extra time, when one has never been able to do a spelling test and the other regularly got 8 out of 10 in the top set! My DD has eyesight issues, more or less blind in one eye, but it never occurred to me that it might have been a reason to ask for extra time - especially those visual images on UKCAT that she could barely focus on after a ten minutes of them.

I am surprised that MMI scoring produces less empathetic and overly confident types - that does not describe my DD. I think the MMI at HYMS sounded like a very good test of doctor material, a group task and an actor scenario (which I cannot give detail on), but I thought very balanced and thought provoking questions that could not be rehearsed.

Lets hope more money is found to train more at school leaver age and graduate level and that the retention rate at the end goes up!

To be honest I would like to think that the medical schools no what they are doing in terms of admissions. Yes UKCAT is tough but then academic rigour us needed as is ability to work under pressure at speed. I certainly think that using UKCat as a cut off is preferable to scoring the personal statement and to me seems little different to scoring GCSEs which are a poor indicator of academic potential. UKCat is just one of the many hoops they have to jump through and medical schools have to make a cut somewhere. There is a big study to say that there is s clear link between UKCAT scores and exam results in year 1 so presumably this is why they use it. No system will ever be perfect and as many of you said different bits suit different people. My DS was glad not to do bmat as writing essays is certainly not his forte! He was really successful at the UKCat - he practiced solidly for about 2 weeks but didn’t do any of the expensive courses. He just used TSR and medic portal for tips on how to improve and used the Medify practice tests which we paid for (think it was about £40 for a months worth of tests).

mumsneedwine - did your Daughter go to the sixth form college in a town beginning with F, not too far away from Slough?
If so, my DD wants to go there for A-Level. Would you recommend?

Sugarapplelane that is the one 😁. She loved F and would highly recommend it. Excellent teaching and they supported her through the application process really well. Lots got into medicine this year so they seem to know what they are doing. She did a month in Costa Rica this summer through college and they offer loads of opportunities to do all sorts of stuff.
If you're local then look at St Peters hospital for work experience. They do 3 days for students, one day each in A&E, Orthopaedics and surgery (the vaginal reconstruction my DD saw was a good talking point at interview 😳). Also Frimley offer volunteering opportunities but it's a long process so start early. And Eton do a 1 day conference for £10 for prospective medics - my DD said this was helpful.

UKCAT is far less susceptible to the effects of unwanted variables. It’s better than using A levels in isolation. It doesn’t have a curriculum so not so dependent on rote learning, good or bad teaching, purchased extra support. All tests results are influenced by the candidate’s degree of preparedness to some extent.

UKCAT tests for visual/spatial elements, pattern recognition and such, important skills if you are a surgeon faced with learning about the layout of blood vessels, etc.
If anything, it’s the academic levels that are overhyped.

I read somewhere that bbc was the minimum tariff in the seventies, I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong!

Eminent and highly gifted surgeons such as David Nott and Henry Marsh are some examples of people with atypical academic backgrounds. Nott failed his A levels first time round and resat. Marsh, author of Do No Harm, a good read for budding neurosurgeons, went in via the Oxford PPE route initially. I think he says he had all arts A levels to begin with!

So the start of year 1 already looming and question following the study linking ukcat and year 1 results? How tough is year 1 compared to year 12/13 with the added practice for ukcat and BMAT? I am a bit worried that DD might still be in the mode of 'thank god its all over' and not yet appreciating that it is very far from over! How quickly does the pressure of the studies start?

Swing - every student we spoke to at open days around the country all said categorically that the first year exams were nowhere near as bad as A levels - phew!

Sorry it wasn’t first year exams - it was final exams!
bmjopen.bmj.com/content/6/10/e011313

Did anyone else go for urgent remarks?
Do these people not realise that actual careers depended on them doing their job correctly?
Day on the phone here though I suspect it's too late.