Zero fees for EU nationals attending Scottish Unis

[Tinkobell]

I struggle to get my head around this. Scotland have decided that Scottish children get their fees paid for by the government .....fine with that, their choice, democracy etc. If an English kid wants to attend a Scottish Uni....they must pay fees as per south of the border; again, I have no issue. However, if an English person decides to upsticks and go live in France or Spain etc, then they send their child to a Scottish Uni, then fees are completely free....paid for by Scottish government!!!! why is this? Does anyone know? Is it a reciprocal agreement? It feels like a frivolous give-away!

Is the issue here not the ability to study for free or at low cost in Scotland (and many other EU countries), but the astronomically high fees in England? Reduce them to zero or the level they were at before they were tripled, and the issue is resolved. England also then benefits from more EU students, many of whom do stay long after graduation (for now, at least).

"England also then benefits from more EU students, many of whom do stay long after graduation". Is this really true? And is it good policy to set out to subsidise University education further in the hope of attracting students from elewhere, when there are so many other calls on the UK budget.

My own understanding was that Scotland were struggling to pay for their "no fee" policy, nd that if they could they would charge EU students in the same way they charge UK ones.

Agreed @Bombardier25966, it IS probably the astronomically high English fee and rate of interest thats probably the issue. Many parents I know are planning on continuing work well beyond retirement years than allow kids to pay rip off loans. That's bad for the economy with no natural attrition. Do hope Scottish gov will review this asap though.

Tinkobell dropping fees would be possible if this were prioritised over other things the Government needs to do, like pay for social care. However it would lead to English Universities being in the same position as Scottish ones. A large increase in demand for the most popular courses, including Oxbridge and London from EU applicants, leading to some squeezing out of UK students, additional budget constraints for Universities, and no extra benefits in terms of access for UK students to courses in Europe.

The assumption is that University is worth paying for. If not, there are other routes like apprenticeships.

European countries that offer free university education typically have much higher rates of income tax - paying rates of 55% or so, on "modest" incomes, is not unusual.

As need says, university education is not cheap and has to be paid for somehow. Free university education is not entirely fair to the majority of the population who don't go to university - should they pay more tax, or should those who benefit from the education pay back some of the costs? (9k doesn't cover all the costs - tax payers money is used to cover the rest.)

Scotland seems to be gaming the rules to restrict the number of EU students getting places at Scottish universities in view of the huge financial impact.

Certainly looking on TSR there seem some absurdly hard offers/ harsh rejections for EU students where their English counterpart (who pays £9k) was getting in with lower requirements. St Andrews seems to be busy rejecting candidates who got places at Oxbridge (and for sciences so I doubt this is just luck of the draw).

Its not "gaming". For popular courses there will be a set number of "free" home/EU places and a set number of RUK places. There is less demand for the latter so entry requirements may well be lower.

Universities/the Scottish Government cannot afford the expand the number of home/EU places but there may be more flex for those who pay. Even more flex for those who pay a lot, ie International students.

I'm not convinced that they are not gaming - the threads about medical school entry show ridiculously high requirements from EU applicants compared with Scottish students. I understand the reasons why.

I’m Scottish and think it’s insane none of us are paying at least something for our degrees.

i think the whole "Scottish University is free to Scottish Entrants" is all smoke and mirrors. The government does not have a limitless pot and the universities need to bring in as much revenue as possible to maintain their standing within Scotland and the world at large. The result of this is that fewer and fewer places are becoming available to Scottish students and the places that are available are likely to be on the courses that are less attractive to fee paying student from England or outside the EU. I personally don't see how this can benefit Scotland in the long run.
I also think it is turning Scotland into an even more parochial society than it is perhaps already perceived elsewhere. Because fees for Scottish students are free it discourages many Scottish pupils from looking at universities outside Scotland including Oxbridge as it seems mad to pay when you can get something for free, however, the long term prospects of perhaps having a degree from an Oxbridge College could benefit the individual and perhaps even Scotland in the long run.
I personally think the money for higher education should be awarded to whichever university a Scottish child achieves a place at (perhaps up to a limit) to enable more Scottish students to look more outwards at opportunities elsewhere. I appreciate the universities would hate this idea in Scotland as it would mean they weren't being propped up by the Government and would have to really fight to attract and keep Scottish students as apposed to the present situation where many really good Scottish candidates cannot access the course they have as their 1st choice because so many places are allocated to fee paying students from elsewhere but they may still get a place on another course so the university still gets the funding.

It's not gaming at all - the number of places is capped by the Scottish Government.

OP it's been like this for years - have you really only just found out?

If you object to paying fees at an English university perhaps encourage your child to study for free in Europe.... At least before Brexit. The we'll all be International and charged massive fees which presumably you'll be happy about as it'll be fair.

Re: equality across the EU, I think if you look at a typical EU country, it is far more common place for a student to attend their local university within their home town and commute from home; thus avoiding high accommodation and living expenses on top of high fees which we have here in England. Many uk unis don't offer a huge range of courses (my DD wants medicine but there's nothing within commuting distance) and also we have this social expectation of the grand nest departure in this country - at great cost to ourselves! I think many countries would see this as a big indulgence or mad!

DD looked at the Republic of Ireland for medicine, and may indeed have applied had she been forced to take a gap year. Lower fees, though perhaps higher living costs and little access to loans. However entry requirements were high, or at least the way they translated British ones. I guess demand there from EU students will go through the roof once the UK leaves.

Tinkobell, the grand-departure is only certain Universities and courses. Lots of London students stay at home, especially those from certain ethnic minorities. (It was ever thus. Even in my day the LSE had a lot of students from more traditional London Jewish communities). And it is very normal for students taking vocational courses at lower ranked Universities to stay local. I expect it to be an increasing trend as people think more about taking on student loans.

Do all European Universities offer medicine? I would have thought that because of economies of scale there is a need to focus teaching to a limited number of centres. The really big advantage is that in the UK, if you are accepted on a medicine course you are expected to graduate. This is emphatically not the case in places like France where up to 90% will fail their first year. It is far from unknown for European students to apply to UK medical schools because of the consistency of teaching.

If it's any consolation, said Scottish universities take very few EU students. I don't get the impression therefore that EU students coming to Scotland are "crowding out" the Scottish students, as Scottish universities give first consideration to Scottish students... if anything I feel it's the other way around.

For a French-educated applicant, getting into St Andrews is bloody impossible (and they make you wait ages for their decisions). I'm talking about students getting acceptances from Oxford, Cambridge and LSE -- they routinely get rejections from St Andrews.

So in response to OP's cunning plan, it would not work in your favour to move your DC to France and apply to Scottish universities from there, unless you don't mind waving goodbye to St Andrews.

The other Scottish biggies are slightly easier (Edinburgh, Glasgow...)

Got some numbers. 2014-15 14,300 EU students attended Scottish unis x £7k per annum govt subsidy received x 4 years typical Scottish degree duration= £400M.....seems a lot! Source: Times Educ Supp.

Yes but number of EU students in the UK as a whole is 134,000 or thereabouts.

.....yes but UK except Scotland students are paying full-fat fees though @shockthemonkey

Shock ...No. "Scottish universities give first consideration to Scottish students" is not true. They are not allowed to.

My assumption, having seen plenty of London based French students, is that there is a general assumtpin that French secondary education is far better than the British system. French people regular describe A levels as "easy". They then decide that because students are not welcomed into UK Universities with open arms, this is discrimination.

The reality seems to be that the French education is hard work and borader but quite prescriptive, and as such is quite different to the more specialised A levels. It may well be that, whatever the French believe, British secondary education is a better preparation for British tertiary education. And that those who thrive in the French system are not necessarily those who will be seen as having the most potential in the UK.

The percentage of the Scottish student body coming from the EU has grown since England introduced fees. I dont have the figures, but someone will. Given there is a cap on the total of Scottish/EU places, Scottish students will be being squeezed out. The effects will be being felt more acutely in oversubscribed subjects like economics, engineering or medicine. Courses French students tend to favour.

I am not wrong - needmore. It is well documented that Scottish universities want international students. These pay the full fee. Eu ones are different. It’s not a different issue because it clearly affects who is offered places at the universities. As you have said. There has to be the dimension of international students in the mix. They are the only ones paying the full cost of many of the courses. Scottish student numbers have gone down as a result of no fees.

According to this article it costs £93m and only 17% of Scots support continuing it post Brexit.

www.timeshighereducation.com/news/scotland-confirms-free-tuition-eu-students-2019-20

The number of Scottish 18 year olds is falling for the next 3 years and will then start rising again. Keeping the system as is for the transition will protect the Uni sector from the short term fall in potential Scottish students and maintain places for the increase in future years. Hopefully the initiatives to close the attainment gap will also increase the pool of qualified Scottish students. ( I am an anorak on this as I have one due to start in 19/20, one in 20/21 and one 9 years later).

I agree with others that the main impact of the difference between Scotland and England has been to make English Unis an unattractive option for Scots. This does not happen in reverse as English student numbers in Scottish Unis are not capped and they pay fees regardless.

OK Sleep... but, it is not my perception nor my students' perception that they are not welcomed with open arms in the UK. Just Scotland.

Every year I get students salivating for St Andrews and they are rejected, even oftentimes after being accepted by Imperial, LSE, Oxford and Cambridge.

For the STEM subjects you have a point, Sleep -- the French students are not well prepared compared to British students offering three very good science A levels. 19.5 in Bac S is not enough to get you an interview at Cambridge for Maths and Physics for instance (the student may well regret having applied to Trinity though). No matter how high your mark, Bac S gets you nowhere near the place where Maths, Further Maths and Physics gets you.

But for the humanities, UK universities are very keen on the wider scope of the French Bac and on the discipline it instills. And French students know this (at least mine do). They feel very welcomed especially in London, at Warwick, Durham, Oxbridge, Exeter, Bath etc.

Just a thought, you can get an degree for free while in prison.
Free bed and board also. Probably better grub, and just as much chance of sexual assault if the recent statistics are anything to go by.

Win - win, just the pesky problem of a police record.
But think of the savings! 😀

If you look at Edinburgh Uni Stats offer rates for EU/Scottish students are published as one as they fall under the same cap. Scottish Students very much feel the pain of the cap. If you look at percentage offer rates then fee paying English students are at an advantage and more likely to receive an offer. Business Studies for example 11% offer rate for Scottish/EU, 50% for Rest of U.K. Maths 31% vs 88%

I can’t find the stats for St Andrews but anecdotally it’s similar, students they you would think would be certain of an offer are rejected.

If you look at Scottish forums on this then you can see the pain that the cap causes. I have one DC going through this at the moment. I’d much rather pay and give all the students a fair chance but that’s not an option. Scottish students are very much losing out because of the Scottish governments stance on fees.