Zero fees for EU nationals attending Scottish Unis

[Tinkobell]

I struggle to get my head around this. Scotland have decided that Scottish children get their fees paid for by the government .....fine with that, their choice, democracy etc. If an English kid wants to attend a Scottish Uni....they must pay fees as per south of the border; again, I have no issue. However, if an English person decides to upsticks and go live in France or Spain etc, then they send their child to a Scottish Uni, then fees are completely free....paid for by Scottish government!!!! why is this? Does anyone know? Is it a reciprocal agreement? It feels like a frivolous give-away!

[PinguDance]

It's been like this for at least 10 years - it's not an issue that reflects badly on the Scottish govt but the English. Scotland has chosen to keep university education free for it's residents, England hasn't. And yes your kids could study in the EU for a fraction of what they'd pay in England, in English, it's just whether you'd want them to or not.

I'm not sure what Scottish Unis do now tuition fees have gone up - Edinburgh started charging 9 grand per year for a 4 year course when I left which seemed stupid to me; v. unattractive to English students. Previously the fees were lower than in England to make Scottish unis competitive - I also had my third year for free as I did Erasmus so it was cheaper for me than I had I studied in England.

Anyway I think the outlook is quite different (at least at Edinburgh) as there is more promotion of Erasmus, which you can do for a full year, and because, to the surprise of many English people, Scotland is actually a different country with a different culture to England. I certainly felt there was more of a 'European' identity at Edinburgh than at the English Uni I also went to.

[PinguDance]

@needmoresleep that's interesting about the perception of your French students, French Uni's having the bad reputation that they do - why would secondary education be so good only to lead to bad universities (excepting SciennesPo). I think French students probably just assume A levels are easier as we typically only do 3; I never decided if I preferred the Bac or A levels, on the one hand Bac students had enviably broad knowledge but I felt A levels did confer better critical and writing skills.

In that vein, the received wisdom at Edinburgh was that Advanced Highers were one step up from A Level.

[Needmoresleep]

Ping, certainly students we knew at the Lycee CDG seemed to think the 'English stream' was for weaker students. The French stream was too tough. In fairness the timetable for students taking the Bac seemed tough, perhaps exacerbated by the by lack of space which seemed to lead early starts and late finishes.

I wonder if the problem for French students at St Andrews is that they are assuming that courses at Oxbridge/London are 'better' therefore 'harder' to get into. But because of limited places for Scottish/EU students at St Andrews, and because the lack of fees will cause some of the strongest Scottish/EU applicants to prefer St Andrews over English Universities, it may be simply that entry to St Andrews is more competitive.

It would be interesting if Scottish students ever find they are offered Oxbridge places, but are rejected by St Andrews. I assume this happens.

[Bellamuerte]

What puzzles me is how students from (for example) Berwick in England are only a few miles from the Scottish border yet would have to pay tuition fees for a Scottish university. Yet students from another EU country such as Austria would pay no fees at a Scottish university! And English students could go to (for example) a Danish university and pay no fees, yet would have to pay if they studied in their own country or in Scotland.

Personally I'd encourage my DC to study for free in Austria, Denmark, Norway, etc, rather than pay a fortune to attend a UK university.

[Walkingdeadfangirl]

The thing is Scottish unis might be free but their degrees just aren't worth much anymore. If you want to make something of your life (rather than just have a 4 year party) then you need a decent 3 year degree from a good RG English Uni.

[S0ph1a]

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Thanks Walkingdeadfangirl I needed a good laugh

[Lessstressy]

Mmm Walking we've been wondering about this.

DD likes the look of 2 Scottish unis for her subject (we're in England) but she's/ we're not sure how their value will be perceived in the future when she's job hunting. It seems to be fairly well known that they are underfunded in comparison to English unis and letting in lower quality International students in significant numbers over well-qualified Scottish applicants. Plus as far as I can see it takes four years to get a MA degree which is equivalent to an English BA though I can't quite understand the MA vs BA thing and why a Scottish MA is lesser than an English MA. But DD loves Scotland, as do we.

Some Scottish unis seem to cap fees at three years for a four year course but not the ones DD likes unfortunately.

[SnowJokeAnymore]

Family member looked into first degrees in the EU and couldn't find ones in English (although I know there are full fees medicine/ dentistry variety out there.)

They were looking for Engineering. It's great if free courses are available in English. Are they not popular with English undergrads?

[Reallycantbebothered]

For what it's worth I have 2 dcs at Scottish Unis and 1 at English...the eldest dd got MA from top 30 Uni ( not RG) , then MSc from RG uni...( both Scottish)....she's doing very well thanks ....was offered several jobs when she qualified
Youngest Ds got a £2k bursary from his Scottish Uni and is loving his course....he likes the flexibility of the modules and was able to choose a subject he might not normally have considered as he'd not studied it at A level...
The Scottish MA is not as rigid as a BA , as the first 2 years are spent doing a mixture of modules before concentrating on your final degree subjects in year 3 and 4 along with a dissertation

[user1484040234]

Snow, It's worth looking at the Netherlands for low cost Engineering degrees eg Eindhoven and Twente (campus uni).

[user150463]

Personally I'd encourage my DC to study for free in Austria, Denmark, Norway, etc, rather than pay a fortune to attend a UK university.

Post Brexit, people from the UK will not have access to these universities at EU fee rates. International (non-EU) fees at such universities are not necessarily low.

I'm not sure I would want my DC studying at such places in the current uncertain period - it is far from clear, even to those of us working in higher education, what is going to happen post Brexit in the HE sector.

[Tinkobell]

Any views what might happen post brexit to those who got their foot-in-the door on the fee exception (EU's) but still have a couple of years to run on completion of their degree? Would the whole course duration be honoured fee - free I wonder?

[user150463]

Nobody knows the answer to that question - it depends on the outcome of negotiations. Why would EU universities honour free fees if the UK is not willing to match this, by treating EU students at UK universities as if they are UK students (fee status, loans etc)?

Remember, even much more fundamental things, like rights for EU nationals in the UK and UK citizens in the rest of the EU are not settled.

At the moment it is looking very unlikely that the UK will be able to access European research funding as now, which is going to mean a huge hit for UK universities.

[user150463]

I would also reiterate what has been said upthread about the Scottish funding situation being unsustainable - Scottish universities are cracking under the pressure of being systematically underfunded. So the education may be free for Scottish students who get in, but without an injection of funding the quality of the education provided cannot be maintained.

[MongerTruffle]

Scottish universities give first consideration to Scottish students
This is not true. If they did, it would be a huge breach of EU law. EU member states are not allowed to prioritise their own citizens over other EU citizens (the main exception is voting).

[user150463]

It can be done through academic criteria: set criteria for the course which fit particularly well Scottish school qualifications. Then the Scottish students can be selected through academic fit to the course.

(The same is done in European universities. For example, France and Italy have qualification exams for permanent academic positions that are essentially only passable if you are both fluent in their languages and familiar with their educations systems. So while in principle all EU citizens are treated equally in practice the qualification procedure uses the academic hurdles to favour their own citizens.)

[motherstongue]

My DS went to school in England but his residence has always been Scotland. When he applied to Edinburgh and St. Andrews he was rejected even though he has 11A and predicted 3A for his A levels. Meanwhile, fellow classmates were accepted at both Edinburgh and St. Andrews for the same courses he applied for with lesser grades! The difference could only be, to our mind, that his English schoolmates were paying full fees whereas he was not! They even phoned him to query if he would be paying fees before he got the rejections.
Neither were his first choice of uni so it wasn't heart breaking for him but it bloody annoyed me as it is stealth discrimination.

[CraftyGin]

My DD is at Edinburgh. Her course is about 30% Scottish/EU. 30% Foreign, and 40% RUK. The Scottish places are capped, whereas there is no cap for RUK/Foreign student.

[Walkingdeadfangirl]

How does any Scottish student without rich parents afford to go to a Scottish University? Because they don't get the massive maintenance loan you get in England.

[titchy]

Eh walking dead? Of course they get loans.... They're more generous than the English ones too!

[Walkingdeadfangirl]

In England you can get over £8000 pounds maintenance loan plus University bursary. That is way more than you can get in Scotland and the reason why social mobility is so bad at Scottish unis.

[titchy]

The maximum in Scotland is £7600 - it's pretty close, with lower costs of living on average. The household income thresholds are lower and they still awards grants.

The cap on places is largely responsible for the lack of mobility, not the maintenance amounts.

[user150463]

Neither were his first choice of uni so it wasn't heart breaking for him but it bloody annoyed me as it is stealth discrimination.

But families based in Scotland are responsible for this policy - they voted for it. Universities cannot survive on the level of fees being given to them by the Scottish parliament; the only way they can survive is by getting enough students from the rest of UK/internationally.

[motherstongue]

User neither I nor any of my family voted for this. I couldn't agree more, the universities need more funding and realistically the only way to do that is to charge or raise taxes. I think that the real problem lies in the fact that if you asked most of the general population about higher education being free in Scotland they would believe the hype and trot that out as their answer, it's not until you are actually faced with the situation, in a lot of cases, that it really hits home that it is hugely discriminating against our own kids opportunities to study on the courses they really want in their own country.

The thing is, if he had really wanted to go to Edinburgh or St. Andrews we would have preferred an upfront and honest discussion saying he wasn't getting a place as they wanted the higher fees. Perhaps, if they had the option, some students would pay if it was their university of choice but that option or choice is taken away from them because they are Scottish.

[user150463]

User neither I nor any of my family voted for this.

Those who voted for the current and previous Scottish parliaments did. There aren't magic money trees. The consequence of free university education is caps on numbers and/or decreasing quality.