Zero fees for EU nationals attending Scottish Unis

[Tinkobell]

I struggle to get my head around this. Scotland have decided that Scottish children get their fees paid for by the government .....fine with that, their choice, democracy etc. If an English kid wants to attend a Scottish Uni....they must pay fees as per south of the border; again, I have no issue. However, if an English person decides to upsticks and go live in France or Spain etc, then they send their child to a Scottish Uni, then fees are completely free....paid for by Scottish government!!!! why is this? Does anyone know? Is it a reciprocal agreement? It feels like a frivolous give-away!

[CraftyGin]

Maintenance loans are determined by your local authority of residence. My DD2 gets about £3500 for Edinburgh. DD1 is entitled to about £5000 for London, but she doesn’t take it.

[CraftyGin]

My DD is studying Economics at Edinburgh. Her course is roughly 30% Scotland/EU, 30% International and 40% rUK.

When DD received her offer, it was originally AAA. A few weeks later, they made it AAB, the ABB.

The only downside to studying in Edinburgh vs an equivalent place in England is the four year course, but this has lots of advantages too, especially for a course like economics. Other Scottish universities waive the fees for the fourth year.

DD is loving Edinburgh, btw.

[TinklyLittleLaugh]

My DD2 (English) is at Trinity College Dublin. We have been told there will be no fee changes for the duration of the course, regardless of Brexit.

[rogueantimatter]

The scottish unis get a measly £1,800 pa per scottish student from the scottish govt.
Funding for FE courses has been cut massively.

Scottish students studying in england pay full english fees and get the less generous scottish loan. This is repayable once graduates earn a meagre £ 17,500 pa. Payable for 35 years. However the interest on loans is capped at the rate of inflation. Scottish students earning between 17 and 26k for many years after graduating will have to pay back a similar sum to english graduates earning the same, despite having their fees paid. I think.

My scottish DS is studying in London. There was 1, yes just 1 place on the only course of its kind he wanted to do in scotland, which he got, but he still turned it down, as studying in London seems a better investment in any hope of making a living in his chosen field (music) tbh he may as well have taken a vow of poverty, but that's for another thread.

[TonTonMacoute]

If I remember correctly, when the Scottish government announced this policy there was talk of a legal challenge, as EU regulations state that all EU citizens should be treated equally, and the policy was unfair to rUK students.

In the event, the court ruled that if the legal challenge failed then the group bringing the case would have to pay all the legal costs of the Scottish government, and they decided it was too big a risk, and the case was dropped.

As others have said, there is growing evidence that this policy doesn’t seem to be helping Scottish students particularly, especially those from poorer backgrounds. When I visited St Andrews with DS it seemed to be stuffed to the gills with Americans, although I understand it is only about 15%. They were criticised recently for favouring foreign students, but they argued that they needed the money.

[user150463]

I didn't claim the English funding system is ideal - but the reality is that it is much easier to deliver high quality education and research with adequate funding.

Note that the fees in England are not "ever increasing". They were frozen from 2012-2017, increased by a tiny £250 per year in 2017, and have now been frozen again. In real terms, the fees charged have actually fallen since 2012. Again, if this continues, the inevitable consequence is reduction in education quality - I know of many departments planning to reduce the number of different topics they teach, to bring costs down.

The lack of investment in English 16-18 education is an important, but separate, issue.

[howabout]

As a Scot, I would counter that the inevitable consequence of no cap and ever increasing fees in England has been to provide an irresistible incentive towards expansion at the expense of quality. This is even more the case given the lack of investment in 16-18 education in England.

[user150463]

User neither I nor any of my family voted for this.

Those who voted for the current and previous Scottish parliaments did. There aren't magic money trees. The consequence of free university education is caps on numbers and/or decreasing quality.

[motherstongue]

User neither I nor any of my family voted for this. I couldn't agree more, the universities need more funding and realistically the only way to do that is to charge or raise taxes. I think that the real problem lies in the fact that if you asked most of the general population about higher education being free in Scotland they would believe the hype and trot that out as their answer, it's not until you are actually faced with the situation, in a lot of cases, that it really hits home that it is hugely discriminating against our own kids opportunities to study on the courses they really want in their own country.

The thing is, if he had really wanted to go to Edinburgh or St. Andrews we would have preferred an upfront and honest discussion saying he wasn't getting a place as they wanted the higher fees. Perhaps, if they had the option, some students would pay if it was their university of choice but that option or choice is taken away from them because they are Scottish.

[user150463]

Neither were his first choice of uni so it wasn't heart breaking for him but it bloody annoyed me as it is stealth discrimination.

But families based in Scotland are responsible for this policy - they voted for it. Universities cannot survive on the level of fees being given to them by the Scottish parliament; the only way they can survive is by getting enough students from the rest of UK/internationally.

[titchy]

The maximum in Scotland is £7600 - it's pretty close, with lower costs of living on average. The household income thresholds are lower and they still awards grants.

The cap on places is largely responsible for the lack of mobility, not the maintenance amounts.

[Walkingdeadfangirl]

In England you can get over £8000 pounds maintenance loan plus University bursary. That is way more than you can get in Scotland and the reason why social mobility is so bad at Scottish unis.

[titchy]

Eh walking dead? Of course they get loans.... They're more generous than the English ones too!

[Walkingdeadfangirl]

How does any Scottish student without rich parents afford to go to a Scottish University? Because they don't get the massive maintenance loan you get in England.

[CraftyGin]

My DD is at Edinburgh. Her course is about 30% Scottish/EU. 30% Foreign, and 40% RUK. The Scottish places are capped, whereas there is no cap for RUK/Foreign student.

[motherstongue]

My DS went to school in England but his residence has always been Scotland. When he applied to Edinburgh and St. Andrews he was rejected even though he has 11A and predicted 3A for his A levels. Meanwhile, fellow classmates were accepted at both Edinburgh and St. Andrews for the same courses he applied for with lesser grades! The difference could only be, to our mind, that his English schoolmates were paying full fees whereas he was not! They even phoned him to query if he would be paying fees before he got the rejections.
Neither were his first choice of uni so it wasn't heart breaking for him but it bloody annoyed me as it is stealth discrimination.

[user150463]

It can be done through academic criteria: set criteria for the course which fit particularly well Scottish school qualifications. Then the Scottish students can be selected through academic fit to the course.

(The same is done in European universities. For example, France and Italy have qualification exams for permanent academic positions that are essentially only passable if you are both fluent in their languages and familiar with their educations systems. So while in principle all EU citizens are treated equally in practice the qualification procedure uses the academic hurdles to favour their own citizens.)

[MongerTruffle]

Scottish universities give first consideration to Scottish students
This is not true. If they did, it would be a huge breach of EU law. EU member states are not allowed to prioritise their own citizens over other EU citizens (the main exception is voting).

[user150463]

I would also reiterate what has been said upthread about the Scottish funding situation being unsustainable - Scottish universities are cracking under the pressure of being systematically underfunded. So the education may be free for Scottish students who get in, but without an injection of funding the quality of the education provided cannot be maintained.

[user150463]

Nobody knows the answer to that question - it depends on the outcome of negotiations. Why would EU universities honour free fees if the UK is not willing to match this, by treating EU students at UK universities as if they are UK students (fee status, loans etc)?

Remember, even much more fundamental things, like rights for EU nationals in the UK and UK citizens in the rest of the EU are not settled.

At the moment it is looking very unlikely that the UK will be able to access European research funding as now, which is going to mean a huge hit for UK universities.

[Tinkobell]

Any views what might happen post brexit to those who got their foot-in-the door on the fee exception (EU's) but still have a couple of years to run on completion of their degree? Would the whole course duration be honoured fee - free I wonder?

[user150463]

Personally I'd encourage my DC to study for free in Austria, Denmark, Norway, etc, rather than pay a fortune to attend a UK university.

Post Brexit, people from the UK will not have access to these universities at EU fee rates. International (non-EU) fees at such universities are not necessarily low.

I'm not sure I would want my DC studying at such places in the current uncertain period - it is far from clear, even to those of us working in higher education, what is going to happen post Brexit in the HE sector.

[user1484040234]

Snow, It's worth looking at the Netherlands for low cost Engineering degrees eg Eindhoven and Twente (campus uni).

[Reallycantbebothered]

For what it's worth I have 2 dcs at Scottish Unis and 1 at English...the eldest dd got MA from top 30 Uni ( not RG) , then MSc from RG uni...( both Scottish)....she's doing very well thanks ....was offered several jobs when she qualified
Youngest Ds got a £2k bursary from his Scottish Uni and is loving his course....he likes the flexibility of the modules and was able to choose a subject he might not normally have considered as he'd not studied it at A level...
The Scottish MA is not as rigid as a BA , as the first 2 years are spent doing a mixture of modules before concentrating on your final degree subjects in year 3 and 4 along with a dissertation

[SnowJokeAnymore]

Family member looked into first degrees in the EU and couldn't find ones in English (although I know there are full fees medicine/ dentistry variety out there.)

They were looking for Engineering. It's great if free courses are available in English. Are they not popular with English undergrads?