Do parents attend uni open days?

[ifonly4]

DD is quite capable (or at least she should be as she'll have to deal with everything herself away from home) of registration for events during the day, asking questions and help, but I'd like to be there and feel it's useful as I know what they've said to her. Is it usual for parents to attend open days?

There's a bit of info here:
www.cityam.com/268464/average-graduate-salaries-university-and-subject-go-and

Pretty obviously, graduate salaries depend both on the uni and the subject. There's loads of info available... certainly discussed at open days for courses with a good story to tell!

Out of interest, does anyone know how the graduate salary figures quoted are obtained? Are there as many different versions as there are uni league tables?
Presumably data obtained from graduates completing surveys would be significantly less reliable than e.g. government big brother data mining. I suppose they could easily track salaries of UK-based graduates holding student debt for study at a particular institution via the PAYE/ SLC data.

But what about the universities who are fishing for students and need bums on seats? Obviously they need to say something to attract students. I think it’s obvious there are differences, but some students and parents think all universities are the same. Look at the comments on MN if anyone dares suggest there is a pecking order! Clearly there is in economics and other subjects and courses will have a similar profile.

There is a court case starting where a student from Anglia Ruskin is saying the university gave out misleading information which included glowing “promises”
about grads from her course which were not borne out in reality. I have been led to believe she has a case!

Bubble
Thank you for your reply, he wants to join the police, so may have low starting salary anyway.
Errol thanks also, see article is from 2017, and only covers around 84 universities.
Missing are Lincoln, Derby, Teeside, Bradford, University of South West Scotland and they just one's I know through Ds's limited searches. Also Leeds Metropolitan is now Leeds Beckitt. Also there's Leeds Trinity.
I wonder if choice is say Salford and starting on £20000 and a career with promotion chances or NMW on £15600 and "a dead end" job and no hope of progression, Whether Salford is better?
Because even with £45000 of debt, the graduate wouldn't owe repayments on that debt until they reach £25000 in salary, so possibly getting a career and a chance to buy a small home.
I believe that's how student debt works, may be wrong
Lessstressy, don't know how they do it, Paye, Tax returns or data from cooperate recruiting/agencies, is that possible?

Sorry just me thinking aloud, with probably daft thoughts, not open day stuff, sorry for derail OP

Bubbles
Haven't some university fallen foul of the ASA, over their adverts and claims in them, to prospective students. I think one was from Anglia region, not sure if Anglia Ruskin or University of East Anglia though.
Same problem.
Plus I know full well, Ds is looking at lower tariff universities as he would struggle with RG tariffs.
Think problem is there is no one league table, Hull (our local) is 75, 78, 80 odd and then 350- 500 in world, and some subjects are higher or lower, it's a minefield, and I bet some lawyer will make a fortune

I went with my two, and most of the kids seemed to have a parent with them. I think it's really helpful for them to have someone else there to discuss things with. They asked any questions they wanted to about the courses, but I asked questions about accommodation that they may not have thought to ask.

I've been on many uni entrance related threads in the past few years, and my observation would be that it's not that most parents don't believe there is a 'pecking order' (far from it!) but more that some are out of date or not sufficiently considering at how good a particular uni is for a specific course. And, obviously, there are other factors - eg it doesn't matter how excellent the LSE (or imperial or UCL) are, if your kid would hate living in London then they'll do better elsewhere. My guess is that somewhere like Lincoln will prosper relative to some other new unis simply because it's a very pleasant town.

Sorry, I'm waffling rather off topic here!

I can't help thinking this is a total helicopter parenting thing. I would have died of embarrassment doing anything with my parents aged 17/18 and think they would have totally clouded my judgement.
I went to one a few years ago as a mature student and the (many) parents there totally dominated questions some which were really irrelevant such as where the nearest supermarkets were
Saying that I guess if you're paying £9000 per year on fees you want to know where the moneys going

In my experience, at my university around 95% of young people attend an open day with their parents. We expect it and plan for it.
Incidentally, there is some information relating to parental influence on university. Only 7% of young people said their parents had no influence on the decision to go the university so you could surmise they will also have an influence on which university they attend. I've also seen an increase in parents attending UCAS fairs.

Btw.. gold standard relates to teaching excellence but employability accounts for some of the metrics used.

The Graduate employability figure is gained from the one survey ( currently 6 months after graduation but that is changing to 18 months soon) but how it's interpreted can vary - check the small print. There are a few claiming to be top 10!

Blaablablaa
Lincoln said the TEL, is it?, was to try and go away from basing universities on their research merits. In response to the fees issue.
Is that true?
Errol City of Lincoln is amazing, graduation is held in Cathedral and then Castle. Sad thing that stuck in Mum & Dad's mind, not Ds.

No chance we as parents would attend UCAS fair, a didn't know such a thing existed and Ds went on day trip to the one at Hull, with 6th form, they arranged every thing.

It's the TEF...the Teaching Excellence Framework. Previously universities were judged on their research merits. Research intensive universities tended to be viewed as the better universities. However, they didn't score as well on student satisfaction and teaching quality. Students also wanted to know that they were getting value for money so the £9000 fees definitely played a part.

A number of research intensive , Russel group universities didn't score well on TEF ( some only achieving bronze) so have been trying to discredit the whole process. I personally think it's a useful benchmark as it assesses a number of things that are important to an undergrad paying £9000 in tuition fees. It's looked at teaching quality, retention ( effectively support on offer) and graduate outcomes (jobs) ....I was involved in the TEF submission for my institution and believe me getting gold was no easy feat and institutions that achieved that should be commended

Blaa,
Thank you for your reply. Universities are a mystery to us really.
I know certain universities with silver (Hull is one) and bronze (York St Johns) where down playing it.
Coventry, Derby and Lincoln, all gold where unsurprising shouting from the roof tops.
So difficult to know, saw RG universities didn't like it.
(only used the named ones as that's where Ds looked at, so not picking on them especially)

The thing I don't get about the TEF is how one overall award per uni can be meaningful. The quality of the teaching surely varies between departments. As with the research rankings, surely it needs breaking down by subject.

The first round of TEF was institution wide but the next round will be subject by subject.
You can get comprehensive subject information from unistats and it allows you to compare with other universities and subjects. It includes NSS, employability, contact time etc and is probably the best place to get impartial information.

However, my advice would be to use things like TEF, NSS, employability, prospectuses, websites and UCAS fairs to make a short list but none of these are a substitute for visiting an institution. Only then will you know if you can see yourself studying and living there for at least 3 years. A gold rated, all singing all dancing uni might be the best in paper but it needs to be right for the individual. Open days and applicant days will help with that.

There are many aspects of TEF that are not related to teaching excellence, best example of it is that the London School of Economics, which is in the RG and one of the best universities of the world, only got bronze. I cannot imagine them being as bad as a little university with hardly any resources, not very developed research groups, etc being as good or bad as them due to sharing a Bronze.

Value for money... Reputable universities need to charge top fees due to high expenses associated with better equipped labs, and more complex and therefore expensive research. Small badly rated universities are forced to do the same as they have been stripped from the posibility to apply for research grants and other income avenues (thank the Tories for that). In all honestly, the only way you can get value for money is by getting your child to get very high grades (thank the Tories for that too, as that is even more difficult to achieve if they come from areas where schools are not that good)

The main thing to know about the TEF is that

at no point are actual teaching or teaching materials or syllabi or curriculum materials, looked at, observed, inspected, or assessed

Never. And this won't change with subject level TEF.

It will tell you a lot about various measurements of material resources.

It will tell you a lot about students' perceptions of their satisfaction - although there is overwhelming research to suggest that student evaluations of teaching are more accurate in predicting student racist and sexist biases than their lecturers' teaching skills & efficacy. A lecturer who is a woman of colour will almost always be rated as less "effective" or "satisfactory" than a ale lecturer, even when they do exactly the same things.

The TEF will not tell you about the quality of face to face teaching in any department or university.

The TEF is a complete smokescreen, while the current government undercuts the quality of UK HE.

I work in an institution with a strong TEF rating. TEF is nonsense, and I am surprised and shocked that any academic would suggest prospective students make shortlists using TEF in any way.

I personally think it's a useful benchmark as it assesses a number of things that are important to an undergrad paying £9000 in tuition fees. It's looked at teaching quality, retention ( effectively support on offer) and graduate outcomes (jobs)

But what you haven't said is that universities weren't measured across the same benchmarks. The benchmarks were completely different for post 92 low tariff universities than for elite RG. In absolutely terms the retention and graduate outcomes at the RG Bronze institutions is much better than at a number of the post 92 low tariff Gold institutions.

I totally agree with everything RagingGirl says about TEF.

I never said it was the only thing a prospective students look at when shortlisting universities but it is something to factor into the decision making process. It is being used in this way . I speak to lots of parents, teachers and some students who directly reference the TEF results. Now, I know they don't understand the nuances of the process but not many staff working at institutions do either!

Of course different benchmarks were used - and rightly so. The demographics are students are different. It's unfair to directly compare an elite RG university that attracts primarily wealthy students from the best ( often independent) schools to a university where the majority of their students are classed as WP or non-traditional students. Of course the elite, RG uni is likely to have stronger graduate outcomes and higher retention because they're starting from a different standpoint. What benchmarking allowed TEF to do was look at distance travelled - looking at where their students started from and where ended up at the end of the course.

It's the same principle as using contextual data in admissions.

The point is, though @Blaablaablaa that parents and intending applicants think that the TEF is about day to day & face to face teaching quality - the skill of individual academics in facilitating individual student's learning.

It's important that parents realise that This.isNot.theCase

Even at the projected subject/Department level, it is entirely a metrics assessment. It is NOT in any way an individualised assessment of
curriculum
syllabi
observation of actual seminar/lecture/lab interactions

The old TQA process (in which I have participated as assessor and assessee) did actually look at Department's syllabi & spoke to actual real live academics.

The TEF does not and will not do ANY of these things.

Which is why I said it should be one of many pieces of information parents, teachers and potential applicants look at and those of us involved in advising applicants should be making this clear.

However, it's been made clear that it's not going anywhere anytime soon and, just as the government intended, people are using the simplistic ranking system of Gold, Silver and Bronze to inform their decisions. It's by no means perfect but it does have some merits and people should be encouraged to investigate why an institution was awarded gold or bronze etc. But it shouldn't be the ultimate deciding factor.

It's by no means perfect but it does have some merits and people should be encouraged to investigate why an institution was awarded gold or bronze etc.

Southampton has better statistics than RG universities that achieved gold.

They got bronze because their PVC for Education wrote an awful statement and their VC had pissed off a lot of people.

Nothing whatsoever to do with Southampton's actual teaching.

Again, as somebody who works in a university with a strong rating - I would declare it as meaningless. We were always going to get a very high rating due to the students we take. Benchmarking us against other RG is not fair to them - the benchmarks were just not chosen appropriately.

I would add that I work at one university and am an external examiner at two others. One of the two externals is gold rated; the other is bronze. The actual teaching at the latter is better and far more innovative. The different TEF ratings reflect the structure at the top of the university (PVC for education etc), not what is happening on the ground.

Subject level TEF is also going to be affected by many issues that are irrelevant to the actual quality of teaching, and that will be obscure to parents and students.

Ah, is that why - s'ton was DDs insurance offer last year, we were all very impressed by the dept on open day, and then when she and DH went again for her interview. I'd assumed that maybe some of the other depts were less good (this is what I was thinking of in an earlier post)

This is why I and RagingGirl are so against TEF, Errol.

Parents and students perceive that TEF is an actual measure of the quality of education - when TEF involves no visits to departments, no assessment of curricula, no assessment of teaching methods, no attendance of lectures.

Some of the measures input into TEF are indeed of importance to parents and students - such as graduate employment - but should not be confused with quality of education.

As a parent of a child who was never going to attend Oxbridge or even a RG or the likes of St Andrews/Bath or Heriot Watt. I think the TEF gives first time students (like Ds) and us, first time parents, another tool to rank the 1992 and other universities.
I believe universities where ranked on research carried out/published, but that is always going to favour Oxford/Cambridge and RG, because that's where all people who give out funding went/are based.
Since looking at and confirming Lincoln, we have found and realised it's is heavily involved in industry and local research, plus one of it's professors/lecturers, is one of 5 with parliamentary funding/scholarships. She is looking into epetitions and how they affect modern politics.
Like Blaa, I think is another tool to use, bit like school league tables, but not sole reason, open days and offers days, equally if not more so.
The lecturer at Lincoln open day, in sample lecture, said it was just as important to realise if you disliked Lincoln, as if you loved it. If it was former, ran away and find one you love!
I think he is so right. Ds discounted one university after all open days, as he couldn't see himself there.