Is an arts degree from Oxbridge useless?

[Whitlandcarm]

I mean something like Archaeology, or History or Anthropology, HPS specialising in Sociology etc

Would it be better to get into a “lesser” university to study something like Economics, Law etc?

Some Oxbridge courses seem to have average grad salaries of as low as £22k. Is there something effecting these figures such as people going into further study, part time work etc?

That's good to hear MadameButterfly. I do sometimes get the impression that MN is rather Oxbridge heavy. Obviously, with DD in year 13 (and applying for medicine) I read a lot of higher education threads, and there seem to be very few threads where posters' DC are applying to non RG universities and ex polytechnics.

DD has a really good friend who has had an offer for Oxford so I have read those threads as well.

We do have our Year 13 thread in further though Lonicera where there is a much more representative group posting.

Thank you Kitten. Must look out for that.

I think a some people on MN when it comes to RG v ex-poly have very narrow vision which usually centers around the city of London specific firms. There's a whole wide world of industries out there looking to recruit good graduates from RG or not, many who are not based in London. The ex-polys also to have very good relations with local firms, so of course they are interested in their graduates.

There are plenty of medium sized firms also who like to recruit from the local uni. Savy graduates take these opportunities as a step up to major firms in the city later. The point is, once you've got good working experience, nobody cares wether you went to RG or not.

No Stranger. My point is that many careers require a range of skills. Some careers (some areas of IT may be an example) where social skills are not so important , others where a range of skills are needed.

I was also referencing, though I know I should not, a thread from yesterday (which I assume Madam Butterfly has also read) with some very MN posts about "lesser" Universities.

In terms of medicine, it is horses for courses. There will always be a range of views. I have recently met two senior doctors at London teaching hospitals, both of whom were working with Oxbridge trained clinical (the last batch) or FY1s. One suggested that the Oxbridge clinical students were some way behind their London equivalents in terms of being ready for patient contact. The other, Cambridge educated herself, was deeply impressed at the strength of her FY1's science knowledge, and less impressed how much time my DD was spending on placements and not in the lecture theatre.

If DD had gone to either, she would have got very different advice on where to study.

My personal view is that it really helps to know where you are headed post University, and then to fully engage in your degree, whilst picking up as many ancillary skills as possible via societies or vacation work. And that quite a lot of young people might be well advised to consider apprenticeships or vocational degrees at local Universities. Perhaps with a gap year or two for some growing up. I think it is quite risky to get to the end of University without ever having had paid employment and to expect an employer to be wowed by an Oxbridge degree.

History at Oxford, don't know about Cambridge but expect they are not far behind, is considered a crème de la crème degree. 2nd in the world I think. Their Archeology is the best in the world. For that alone, for just getting on the course, it has opened a hundred doors.

frasier any second now there'll be a link to the uni rankings saying Durham is ranked #1 for History in the UK ....

Needmoresleep -Funnily enough I haven't read the thread of yesterday you refer to but sounds of a similar ilk to others i've read before.

Talking about arts degrees (at any university BTW). If someone is passionate about their subject would you say it is easier to study than a science or maths degree? If you love reading about ancient history and immerse yourself in it 24/7 I can't see someone loving maths or chemistry in the same way. Or am I wrong?

Lonicera, you are wrong.

There are plenty of IT geeks who love IT. DS has been reading University level economics books since the age of 12, happily swaps articles with DH, and expects to be in the University (not Oxbridge) library seven days a week. His friends are similar. Even DD, who has never been a reader, is enjoying medicine to the extent that she has started reading round her subject.

At the same time there will be humanities students, perhaps not Oxbridge but certainly RG, who prioritise clubbing over lectures.

From what I have heard, the pace of Oxbridge science degrees is such that they would be quite hard if you did not really enjoy your subject.

Madam Butterfly, there you go. It was a bit of a corker www.mumsnet.com/Talk/higher_education/3157208-Anyone-got-unconditional-from-Bournemouth

People can have a passion about anything, that's why its their passion. I love history, but in the same I get excited about reading up on e.g.the lost city of Petra etc ds loves doing weird calculations out of boredom not my cup of tea! equal passion.

Needmore - thank you

Yes Lonicera you're wrong.

Another outrageous slur on Oxford students! Of course some prioritise clubbing over lectures - DS2 had real problems in his regular Friday morning tutorial with the senior college tutor on account of the night before (main club night in Oxford). Admittedly Cambridge is more restricted on the club front, but I'm sure there are some like minded souls there too.

Ah yes thanks Needmoresleep I didn't want to ask :)

More seriously I went to an interesting talk last year given by the Deputy Prime Minister of Singapore. Singapore, the ultimate City State, invests heavily in top quality tertiary education. I think a third on DS' rather specialist degree were on Singapore Govn scholarships, and NUS is charging up the World Rankings in a number of subjects. Indeed one of DS' British friends has opted to take his Masters there rather than in Europe or the US.

However their thinking is that the traditional degree model is not right for everyone, and that economically successful regions, either in the US or Europe are ones where local tertiary education is well integrated with local employers. Something Germany has traditionally done very well. So sandwich degrees, support for apprenticeships, and shorter diploma courses to allow people to update skills, rather than simply encourage more people to take "degrees". Technology does not cause unemployment. Skills mismatch does. Our DC are likely to have to retrain continuously through their working lives.

dd loves maths through her very core Lonicera, to her it is truly beautiful.

I'm happy to be corrected. Sadly, I don't think DD is as passionate about anything educational as much as she is about Stranger Things/Dexter/Harry Potter/YouTube/Spotify.

Now, if they did a Harry Potter degree

Ha, one of mine shares Efficient Memes for Sassy Econometricians, the other seems to have an endless supply of pictures/videos of cute animals.

Cats, kittens and dogs for DD

So a 1st class degree in maths from Oxbridge for example is not the same as a first in maths from Sheffield or Leeds?

No, it's not the same, and graduate recruiters don't treat it as the same. The level of intellectual rigour and achievement demanded at Oxbridge is higher in most cases, thus the rough rule of thumb that an Oxbridge 2:1 is equivalent in rigour and achievement to a First from somewhere else. There are exceptions obviously (medicine is one where Oxbridge has a different approach and other unis can be preferred depending on preference) but it's not a level playing field, and nobody pretends it is. Once you're more established in a career your university pedigree counts significantly less, but i think it would be naive to say that nobody ever looks at or weights your university again.

Needmoresleep Sheffield University is heavily involved with the Advanced Manufacturing Research Centre in Sheffield/Rotherham and has loads of degree apprenticeships. They have partnerships with Rolls Royce, Boeing, Airbus and BAE Systems among others.

My DH is a lawyer by trade but has moved sideways into investment banking. However, in a previous job he was responsible for recruiting the new law grads on training contracts. He always favoured those who had opted for an arts degree followed by a conversion rather than those who did law degrees. He felt they made better lawyers. However, he often took on Oxbridge graduates who had done all manner of weird and wonderful courses before doing their conversion. He once gave a careers talk at his old state secondary and both teachers and pupils alike seemed shocked that he’d choose an Oxbridge graduate of zoology over someone who had studied law at an ex poly. It was quite an eye opener for the staff and left DH feeling dismayed at how naive some careers advisors are.

but shouldn't the valueof all degrees in maths, for example, be equal like GCSEs and A levels are?

Degrees are not GCSEs. The material taught is related to cutting edge research and we do not teach homogeneous curricula. If you insisted all universities taught the same, no academic worth anything would stay in this country - the whole point is that we have the freedom to write our own courses, based on our own research.

There is some levelling of degrees through the quality assurance process. This does not ensure that 80% from Plymouth in Maths means the same as 80% from Cambridge in Maths.

This is not BTW knocking ex-polys, who do indeed offer a range of very interesting courses. But it is not realistic to think that a university Maths course requiring Cs at A level is going to involve the same level of achievement in a purely academic subject as a course requiring straight A stars at A level (which Cambridge Maths does). The courses just aren't the same. That certainly doesn't mean that the one requiring Cs isn't valuable - it may well offer different but valuable skills.

Yes, the level of intellectual rigour and achievement is much higher and that is why it is so well respected.

Meeting the right people, who went to the right schools and who feel they are entitled to the most powerful jobs in the country doesn't hurt either. Much easier to give someone a job if you've met them at a country house weekend, what?