Is an arts degree from Oxbridge useless?

[Whitlandcarm]

I mean something like Archaeology, or History or Anthropology, HPS specialising in Sociology etc

Would it be better to get into a “lesser” university to study something like Economics, Law etc?

Some Oxbridge courses seem to have average grad salaries of as low as £22k. Is there something effecting these figures such as people going into further study, part time work etc?

Apologies Goodbye it wasn't meant to come across as a swipe, but having loads of students go to Oxbridge is just not the norm round here, as it clearly is for you. I just wanted to add some balance, and failed miserably.

I would say that our local authority has a handful of students going to Oxbridge - 2 students from DD's school received Oxbridge offers this year (her school is an extremely underfunded state comprehensive school), and maybe to or 3 from the local 6th form college will have had offers, and that's it.

DD's school aspire to getting as many students as they can into Oxbridge/RG universities, and last year about 20% of students went to RG universities.

I don't see many posts on MN where this kind of situation is the norm.

It's fine Lonicera I get where you're coming from. It's not the norm at our school either (extremely underfunded state school - one of the least well funded in the country - but a grammar admittedly) and certainly not in our area as a whole. We're nothing like Westminster or St Paul's down here - that's where the sibling clusters at Oxford are often from. Nevertheless, if happiness is as elusive at Oxbridge as elsewhere - which it very probably is - then does it matter? I mean that seriously too.

I think I should have stipulated !
I for one believe that happiness is of utmost importance. I know a few high flying Lawyers whos studied arts at a top uni. In fact, a cousin studied ASNC at Cambridge and is now working in IB.

This was in regard to an acquaintance who made quite a blunt comment that their daughter was more successful with her degree choosing. (Law at Birmingham- a decent red brick but not very competitive to get in for)

I’m glad the wider mumsnetters see my POV.

How hard is your hardest hat Whitland ?!! :)

It will depend on what you want to do with a Law degree from Birmingham and who you have to compete against to get what you want. At the end of 3 years, she may go and work for a charity. She may not get anything else. Who knows at this stage?

My local garage owner (originally from India) couldn’t believe DD wanted to do MFLs at University. “But what job will she able to do with that degree?” he wanted to know. In his world, it was only worthwhile to do Law, Pharmacy, Medicine, or Engineering! The notion that you do a subject because you like it and are good at it wasn’t on his radar. DD converted to Law. He’s happy now!

It's interesting how people from countries with less of a welfare state are shocked by the idea of taking on tens of thousands of debt to 'enjoy' yourself without any garuntee of a return of your money/fundamentally being able to pay it back.

where are your statistics for that assertion outy?

It's pretty easy (if you have the money!) to do a one year post grad law conversion course, so there is no particular tactical in advantage in having a law degree rather than an arts degree when it comes to legal job applications.

I recruit staff for.my industry and the key considerations are that the student has worked hard and has the right interpersonal qualities. Where the degree was obtained does not really figure. Evidence of involvement with their subject and/or persuing outside interests ie sport or voluntary work all contribute. Not.many employers discriminate on university these days. If they did they would have a very small talent pool.

Your friend sounds a bit ignorant.
The "magic circle" law firms appear to heavily prioritise Oxbridge graduates and Law is certainly not the chosen degree choice of many im these firms. It does make a difference in some firms/jobs. It has made a difference for teaching jobs, for me.

"Not.many employers discriminate on university these days. If they did they would have a very small talent pool"

That's good to know. Obviously there are some firms (mainly London based?) that prefer to recruit from the Oxbridge pool, but not all companies need staff educated to Oxbridge level (or can afford them).

Also, if employers judge you on which university you studied at it isn't a level playing field is it? So a 1st class degree in maths from Oxbridge for example is not the same as a first in maths from Sheffield or Leeds?

So it isn't levelling like GCSEs and A levels?

If there is discrimination between universities and degrees then it's generally, these days, for sound reasons. An Oxbridge degree on its own (for a job where you need to interact with others) won't be sufficient to trump everything but if your manner with others and your personality is equal, then an Oxbridge degree is likely to trump a rival applicant's degree from a less 'elite' university. Oxbridge degrees are not a walk in the park and if you've got a decent one then you've proved a certain level of academic ability as well as staying power.

Check out London barristers' chambers recent tenants if you want to see massive Oxbridge domination, which seems perfectly legitimate. There's no reason why all degrees should be equal. Some fields of work require high levels of intellectual ability and intellectual creativity. There are a number of areas where Oxbridge graduates saturate the field, not just the sharper end of Law. Provided there's genuine scope for non Oxbridge graduates to get a proper hearing at the interview stage, it shouldn't be a huge problem - only if there's unthinking bias which rules everyone else out from the start, which doesn't happen any more.

Also, if employers judge you on which university you studied at it isn't a level playing field is it? So a 1st class degree in maths from Oxbridge for example is not the same as a first in maths from Sheffield or Leeds?

Of course it isn't a level playing field - universities take candidates with a wide range of incoming qualifications and teach their own courses. They don't all teach the same material (as schools do for GCSE and A level).

Nobody in the world of mathematics would regard a first in maths from Cambridge as comparable to a first in maths from Plymouth, because the course content and assessments are not at the same depth.

There is a lot of "it depends".

I agree with Ianica58 that engagement and wider interests will get you a long way for many careers.

Yes private schools love plenty of Oxon or Cantab on their staff lists, and Magic Circle law firms may use Oxbridge as a recruitment shortcut. Senior Americans often put a lot of emphasis on the "school" you went to, but will normally put the better known London Universities on the same footing.

For the last couple of years I have let to students at Bournemouth University, and both groups have been super. If I was an employer and skill sets matched, I would have no hesitation recruiting them. Ditto the BU marketing graduate working for the agency who looks at a room, and explains what needs to be added (pictures, cushions etc) before she comes back to take super photos for their attractive website. Or the BU law graduate who specialised in age restricted leases, matching his ability to support and protect vulnerable clients.

Once in, I don't think it makes much difference. Its about merit. DH had a senior City colleague who climbed the ladder starting with BU and then up via local backroom operations and then a transfer to London. One of his colleagues did similar starting at a new University in Yorkshire.

But again it depends. A naturally academic student may love a arts/humanities degree at Oxbridge and this degree may then open doors to compatible and rewarding careers, whether well paid or not. DD (who is dyslexic) decided very early on that she did not want to work in an office. She had a bit of an academic breakthrough aged 15 which meant she is studying medicine rather than pursue original ideas of physiotherapy or PE teaching. She, rightly, decided not to apply to Oxbridge, even though she would have been a credible applicant, heading instead for a more hands on course.

DS is happy in a library. My plumber, in his mid 20s, skipped University, in favour of a vocational degree. He probably earns £200,000 pa. They met last week as DS was heading off for a Skype interview for a research assistant position at a well known Ivy. Plenty of mutual respect but DS declined the plumber's offer to teach him how to change a washer. DD in contrast can change washers, unblock toilets, bake bread, and can apply her first aid training. She would have been quizzing the plumber about gas pressures, salary etc.

At the end of the day, Oxbridge may help open some doors, but will not entitle you to anything. It is worth building other skills in parallel.

I know there are many university league tables, but is there a table that shows which universities have degrees that are easier to get?

I get that the academic bar to get into Oxbridge is higher, but shouldn't the valueof all degrees in maths, for example, be equal like GCSEs and A levels are? So is a 1st class degree from Sheffield Hallam university (an ex polytechnic) easier to get than a 1st class degree from Sheffield University?

It makes no sense to me.

Medical degrees are conferred by the general medical council so they are pretty much equal, so why can't it be the same for all other subjects (leaving Oxbridge out of the equation here)?

OhYouBadBadKitten Statistics or not, she is 100%. I am from one such country and i've NEVER met anyone who just did a degree because it made them happy without thinking what the earning potential at the end of it might be.

Surely its common sense, that if you live in a country where there is no welfare state, most people can't afford that kind of luxury.

Cross posted User369060

I notice that most posters use barristers in London and other London posts as examples for Oxbridge graduates. What about jobs outside of London - engineering for example or marketing or other other careers?

Are degrees from ex polytechnics valueless?

Lonicera the less competitive the job, the less Oxbridge will dominate.

Also, there are a number of shades of grey in the idea that all medical degrees are equal, as people progress through the ladder. So, up to a point Lord Copper on that one.

I have had to google the "Lord Copper" bit of your post, but am unclear as to what you mean by it. (I haven't read Scoop BTW, must do one day)

Loni- I often read with amusement on threads to do with RG and ex poly degrees. Its seems the MN default is that ex-poly degrees are valueless. Couldn't be further from the truth - I attended an ex-poly as did loads of people from my home country. We have all done extremely well. I worked for years in the city in investment banks with my I.T degree, DH
has his own firm and completed a doctorate at Harvard (also ex poly degree).

Ex-polys also offer brilliant placement years (depending on what you're studying of course), i did mine back then with British Airways. A df's ds just completed a degree in Marketing and did a placement with a car manufacturing company and recently got head hunted. I could give you so many examples. A few yrs ago someone on here was expressing shock that two young people they new who were at ex-polys had secured these amazing placements with top firms that Oxbridge students would dies for, she seemed confused as to how these young people had secured these placement opportunities.

I really don't know what some people think happens to ex-poly graduates, my guess is they assume they sign on the dole for life!

Needmoresleep there's a curious assumption always that Oxbridge and 'other skills' are mutually exclusive. They most certainly are not! Indeed why should they be? It's absolutely not either/ or [cue examples of stuck up (preferably rich) Oxbridge graduates who can't operate 'real life'].

Similarly there's a weird inverted snobbery on MN that Oxford medical degrees are not 'hands on' and that there should be a halo conferred on those opting for a non Oxbridge medical degree because if you want to be 'hands on' as an 18 yr old you must be a much nicer and more caring person than those who choose the long road in. Also a false assumption.

'knew' of course not new.

Sorry Lonicera :) It's a good read though!